[0.0] Hello, difference makers. You are listening to a world of difference.
[4.6] This is a podcast for the people who still believe that how we lead matters.
[10.8] That the conversations we have across difference, across cultures, across the distance between where we are and where the world needs to go.
[22.1] Can actually change things.
[24.5] I am Lori Adams Brown and for over five years I have been bringing global leaders,
[29.4] authors and changemakers to one table, 155,000 downloads, 800 countries,
[37.4] a top 3% podcast and one conviction that has not changed,
[41.6] the right conversation at the right time with the right people shifts everything.
[47.2] If you are here, you are already a difference maker and if you want to go deeper,
[52.4] The Difference Maker's community is waiting for you at patreon.com slash a world of difference.
[58.0] $7 a month, the price of a latte, bonus conversations, voting power, and a seat at the table
[64.2] where this conversation continues. The link is in the show notes. And welcome to this week's episode.
[70.4] I hope it inspires you. Welcome to the World of Difference podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown,
[76.8] and this is a podcast for those who are different and want to make a difference.
[79.9] What happens when you spend nearly two decades building something from the ground up grow it across 80 countries finally
[90.5] sell it and then wake up the next morning with absolutely no idea who you are without it?
[96.3] Today's guest knows that moment intimately and what she built from is changing how thousands of women think about what comes next.
[106.2] Welcome to a world of difference. I'm Lori Adams Brown and this is the show where we explore people
[111.4] ideas and the moments that transform how we lead, how we live, and how we show up in the world.
[117.2] Today, I'm so excited to welcome Fiona McCauley. Fiona is a three-time entrepreneur
[122.7] or a leadership expert and the founder of the Wild Network. I community connecting 25,000
[128.7] purpose driven leaders across 115 countries. She spent 18 years building her first social enterprise
[134.7] before exiting. And then faced a question, she hadn't had to answer since she was 26 years old.
[140.3] What comes next? That experience became the foundation of the next chapter accelerator,
[146.0] a program helping accomplish mid and senior career women, designed their most meaningful chapter yet,
[151.7] including immersive walking retreats on the Kamino de Santiago and Spain, and she's also an
[156.8] adjunct professor at Georgetown University's McDonough School of Business, and the co-author of a
[161.9] brand new book, Aim High and Bounce Back, a successful women's guide to rethinking and rising
[167.2] up from failure. Fiona, welcome to a world of different. Fiona, Macaulay, welcome to a world of
[177.9] difference. Thank you so much, Laurie. I'm so happy to be here with you and your audience.
[183.1] Exciting to dig into all the things that you are putting out into the world and the difference
[187.2] that you're making. But I feel like I want to start at what most people call a finish line.
[191.7] So you sold your first company after what was it 18 years, built it to $5 million in revenue across
[198.6] 80 countries. Most people will call that a success story. Just leave it at that. But you described
[204.2] feeling a drift afterward. And what happened and what was your way out of that?
[212.2] Well, you know, my company was really thriving. It was a social enterprise that worked doing
[219.2] economic development in the global development industry and we were really thriving.
[224.2] And in that industry, when you move to, at that time, being a US government prime contractor,
[230.8] where you want to get to if you've been working as a small business and then you graduate up there.
[235.4] And so my organization, making sense, had recently been awarded a large prime contract.
[241.4] And it was, you know, just a great time to exit the company.
[244.3] to many people, they looked at that and they were like, why is Fiona leaving?
[249.7] Like, look, what's wrong?
[252.5] And, you know, so that was sort of interesting.
[256.9] And it spoke to something that I've just, you know, written about,
[260.3] in our book that launched this week, Aim High and Bands Back.
[263.6] And that is perceived failure, where the choices I would make it was making
[268.4] did not align with the choices at that time of other people in my industry.
[273.4] But I knew that my time working for positive social impact in that way had come to its end.
[283.5] I had started my company at 26 years old.
[286.1] I was now my mid-40s and I really just wanted to think new things and be with different
[291.8] people and do different kind of work.
[294.6] And specifically, I had become really interested in women's leadership and specifically
[299.9] the CEOs of social impact organizations,
[303.0] how they could be the best possible leaders.
[306.5] And I was also interested in working at a leading US
[310.4] university to be able to foster the next generation
[313.6] of social innovators.
[315.0] And both of those things would have been hard to do
[317.2] with the more than full-time job I had
[319.5] being CEO of that particular company.
[322.2] So for me, that was the right decision to take.
[329.7] I think many of us can relate to that,
[331.3] especially living differently, working differently,
[333.9] which is a lot of what we talk about here.
[336.1] People have different versions of what success looks like.
[339.0] And it's all based on our personalities and our cultures
[341.3] and the way we've grown up and where we're going.
[343.4] And that's unique to each of us.
[345.1] But I think it's, you know,
[346.7] I think that so many people don't talk about this identity piece
[350.2] in terms of the way you're talking about it.
[352.0] Because the outside, everything looks like it's working well.
[356.3] You know, which actually leads me to the woman
[360.1] you're talking about that you work with now.
[362.8] So you work specifically with accomplished
[366.5] mid-seener career women who feel stuck.
[370.1] What does stuck actually look like
[372.4] for this particular group?
[373.7] And how do you tell the difference between
[376.2] just needing a break and needing genuine change?
[381.3] So thanks for that question, Lori.
[383.7] So one of the things that I co-founded with
[386.6] a collaborator a couple of years ago
[389.0] is called the next chapter accelerator.
[391.3] And myself, you know, I'm now in my early 50s.
[397.7] And I feel like the kind of change
[400.3] that I had been looking for, you know,
[401.8] when I mentioned selling my company eight years ago,
[404.4] is the kind of change that I also see many of my peers
[408.7] at this age and stage looking for.
[411.7] I have like worked a lot of hours.
[414.8] I feel like I have had a chance to make my mark.
[418.4] I want to keep contributing.
[421.2] I would like to do it more on my terms.
[425.2] People often feel like or making sure there's room
[428.1] for other things in my life.
[430.5] Or people might be in there like what I call the last big job.
[434.1] And they want to really take a step back and think about what
[436.4] is the impact I want to have in this last big job,
[440.0] or what is the legacy that I want to lead.
[443.2] And what I have learned for people who
[445.9] are doing everything from one more big job to leaving a legacy in my big job or down gearing
[452.3] into a portfolio career or down gearing, let's say, into very active retirement is that
[459.3] there's some things that we all need.
[462.7] And one thing is clarity on where it is that we're going because it can be very hard to
[469.7] be in this space.
[470.7] If I know I want change, but I don't know where I want to go.
[474.5] And so one thing is I think a process that allows you to get clarity on the pieces of your
[483.2] life, your work life, your personal life that you want to retain and things that you
[487.9] may want to change.
[489.2] So having some kind of process that you can go through is really helpful because it's
[493.5] very difficult to do alone.
[496.0] The second piece, and this is something that was hugely helpful to me when I was making
[500.3] that big transition myself from leading making sense to now leading the wild network was community.
[508.3] It can be very lonely making change, right? And sometimes the choices you're making are
[513.1] unclear to other people around you or they're very committed to the path that currently on.
[518.7] So being in community with people who are also grappling with these kinds of questions can be
[525.7] can be very helpful. And then the third thing I'll mention is thinking about what is the network
[531.5] that you need to build for your new chapter. And I call that the new chapter network.
[537.6] So in the same way that when you're looking for a new job, many jobs will come outside of the
[543.8] network you're currently in. If you're looking to change your situation and as I was at that time,
[551.5] like meet new people, do different things, think different things. Chances are that you need to
[556.2] expand your network or spend more time with people in different parts of your network than you're
[561.3] currently in. That also can feel daunting, especially if you are currently have a full plate between
[568.9] personal responsibilities, could be caregiving and work. And so again, intentionality can be really
[576.1] helpful in being clear on what is the kind of things that I'm trying to learn. Who might
[583.2] I need to learn those from and then building out your network and moving into spaces where
[588.8] you're going to be able to be exposed to those new people and those new ideas. So process,
[594.6] community and new chapter network. So helpful. I think many people can relate to what you're
[603.5] talking about in the sense that maybe they've left a job for values, misalignment, or a leadership
[609.6] change. Maybe they've been a part of a community, maybe it's a religious community or just a group
[615.2] of friends or a sports community, anything where they suddenly realized their personal development
[621.5] was inhibited by that group in some way or maybe it was harmful in some way. And so they're needing
[625.3] to step away and build something new. And so I think the longer you live life, you just run into
[631.4] things like this where you have to make this decision for yourself. And so I love that
[635.0] distinction. And I think it's what's interesting about your approach is that you
[638.4] don't just talk about this in a boardroom or over Zoom, but you literally take
[643.3] women on a walk on the Camino in Spain, which is really fun. So you ran walking
[648.8] retreats on the Camino de Santiago as a part of your program. Why walking? And
[654.8] what does the Camino do that'll workshop simply cannot? Oh yeah, another great
[660.6] question, Lori. So we do do an annual walking retreat. So next chapter accelerator walking
[666.7] retreat on the Camino de Santiago and we do the part of the Camino that's in northern Spain.
[672.8] And the benefits of embarking on this process in a walking retreat is number one, you're inherently
[682.4] removed from your day-to-day environment. Right? You're like, you're spending five to eight hours a day
[688.0] walking and you're doing it in community with other people who both have that
[694.6] adventure some streak like you do to be doing a walking retreat of this nature and who are also
[699.5] exploring and grappling with these questions. And then we do thread a very intentional process
[708.6] that I mentioned, where we have before we walk every day we have a workshop and in the workshop
[715.8] or like looking backwards at what you've accomplished.
[718.3] We're looking at the present.
[720.0] I'm also envisioning the future.
[722.4] So to be able to do those kinds of workshop activities
[724.7] in the morning and then have the day walking
[728.6] and relaxing in the company of others
[730.9] to digest what it is you've been thinking about,
[734.8] what others have been thinking about,
[736.4] and also to have conversations that like have nothing
[738.4] to do with your transition.
[740.1] ends up being a very nice way for people to be able to move forward on their vision for what
[747.8] they want next and even come up with concrete steps that they want to take, but in a no
[752.8] pressure environment and where you benefit from being out in nature, where you're moving,
[758.5] where you're wearing a dirty t-shirt, and it's very informal.
[763.7] It's kind of the other end of the spectrum as you say, or being in a boardroom.
[767.2] being in a boardroom. That is really powerful. I've known several people that have done the
[779.2] coming notice Santiago and everyone has their own version of what they've come away with,
[784.7] what they were looking for, and I can imagine in a situation like that it can be very powerful just
[790.7] to be with others in their various stages of what they're walking through. So incredibly powerful,
[795.1] but it also speaks to something I think a lot about on this show in particular, the role of
[800.3] of community in our transformation.
[802.2] Both our personal transformation as we do that as individuals,
[805.8] but also the transformation we're working in on boards
[809.5] or in community organizations or in the work
[812.2] that we do around the world.
[813.3] And so, you know, because most of us try to figure
[815.7] these things out alone at times,
[817.8] but you say reinvention, it shouldn't be a solo sport.
[822.9] So what does real community look like?
[825.5] And I'm thinking of the ones listening
[827.2] that it may be in that category of a senior woman,
[830.3] navigating this, and why is her existing network often not enough?
[840.4] At the end of the day, most things happen through other people.
[844.6] Everything happens to other people.
[846.9] And so it's helpful to have got a couple of concrete suggestions.
[853.1] One thing that I call follow your fascinations.
[855.9] So Lori, if you have that experience where you've been scrolling on LinkedIn,
[859.4] for example, or you're on Instagram, and you're like, that person's job looks amazing.
[863.8] like, ah, and like maybe you have a sense of envy that is coming up or curiosity about
[870.6] what that person's job or their portfolio career.
[874.9] That can be a really helpful signal that that's something you're interested in.
[878.7] And I have learned is that most people want to be helpful to other people.
[883.9] So if you see someone on social media, it could also be someone that you've met in real
[889.6] life at like a friend's lunch or playing tennis or in a walking group.
[895.8] I invite you to think about reaching out to that person and letting them know why they're
[900.2] reaching out.
[901.2] Don't say I want to pick your brain.
[904.2] Rather say, like I've seen the article series that you posted on LinkedIn or I overheard
[911.6] you talking to someone so when we were walking and you were talking about a partnership
[917.3] that you were building.
[919.0] So I think let people know that you've paying attention to things that are clearly important
[923.4] to them because they're talking about it, their engaged in activities.
[927.3] I call that authentic flattery because it is authentic.
[930.3] That is what is drawing you to them.
[932.4] And of course, we all feel flattered when people see us and share that they have been
[936.9] observing or listening to things that we are doing.
[941.0] So use that skill that you have of observing others and why they interest you.
[946.9] reach out and just offer a line or two about why you're reaching out and then make it
[951.7] easy for them to meet up with you.
[953.5] You can say here's my calendar link to book a time that suits you or I'm happy to go for
[959.1] a walk at 8 a.m. any day of the week that suits you.
[963.2] I'm available most days.
[965.5] Chances are that person is going to say, sure, I'll hop on a call or I'll do a walk or
[969.8] they're going to offer you their time because you have signaled that you have, that you're
[976.7] a good use of their time because you have really done your homework and you have a very
[980.7] specific reason for reaching out. So that kind of follow your fascinations as one piece of
[985.6] advice that I have. The second one is around experimentation. Taking action builds confidence.
[994.1] So if there's a new role that you're interested in doing or like a new industry that
[998.6] you want to work in or something you want to layer on, maybe you want to start writing
[1003.1] or you want to start teaching at a university or you want to start offering some kind of workshop.
[1009.2] It's very easy to think about doing these things and like ponder could I and would I and how would I
[1016.3] and what would people think if I did and what if I tried and I failed, you know, and really
[1022.7] planning is good. Action, small, taking small actions towards big goals is an incredibly effective way
[1031.4] to try out new things and it can also be low risk.
[1036.1] And in the research that my co-author and I did
[1040.4] on our book, Aim High Bounds Back,
[1042.8] The Successful Women's Guide to Rethinking
[1045.0] and Rising Up From Failure,
[1046.9] we did a survey with over 1,000 women around the world
[1050.0] and we learned that one of the kinds of failure
[1052.9] is the failure not to have tried.
[1055.8] It's that feeling of regret, like I wish I had.
[1059.0] None of us want to be on our deathbeds saying, I wish that I had.
[1065.0] Especially when you break it down, anything, what's a small step I can take.
[1070.0] And I like to use the word experiment.
[1072.0] The small experiment you could take to put your toe in to see if you enjoy doing it,
[1077.0] to build skills in that area, to build your network in that area.
[1082.0] because I'm sure there's something low risk like a trying out and experimenting that you could do towards your next chapter.
[1092.0] Because when you experiment, there's a few things you're going to learn.
[1095.0] Like, yes, I love this. I want to do more.
[1098.0] That's an important signal.
[1100.0] Or like, oh, I tried this and actually I didn't like this as much as I thought or at least this version of it.
[1105.0] So you could always try and experiment in another area.
[1108.0] Whatever the outcome is, you're going to learn and that learning is going to be golden.
[1114.0] So that is my, that is like just a sum it up in one sentence, you know, taking small steps
[1120.0] towards big goals in a way that is low risk and that you're going to intentionally learn
[1125.9] from.
[1126.9] You really can't go wrong.
[1128.7] Love all of those.
[1133.2] I can see each of those playing out in ways that were very beneficial to people specifically
[1138.2] in this audience.
[1139.2] I think that challenges something a lot of probably high achieving maybe men and women both
[1147.0] believe.
[1148.1] And that is that sometimes when we think about asking for help, it can be framed in certain
[1153.4] industries or even leadership contexts to say you're not capable because you asked for help.
[1159.7] But let's talk a little more about failure because it's something you're talking a lot
[1162.8] about researching, writing about because the book goes straight at it.
[1166.2] you're in a book like you said, it's called Aim High and Bounce Back.
[1169.2] What made you want to write specifically about failure for a successful woman?
[1174.6] And what's the biggest misconception about maybe resilient specifically that you're trying to correct?
[1181.8] It came to writing this book because within the wild networks,
[1187.3] leadership for social impact forums. So every year we do an in-person leadership conference for
[1192.4] purpose-driven women in Washington DC. And we also do an online conference. It's separate,
[1199.3] but we do an online conference for about a thousand women in over 100 countries. And men are also
[1204.0] welcome people of all genders. And one of the things that I introduced in 2021 was the leadership
[1210.9] fail lab, where successful women are invited to share a failure. Right? So they really share the
[1220.4] the story of that failure.
[1221.5] I'm like, what was the lead up to it?
[1223.0] Often it involves like hubris overconfidence,
[1226.3] or sometimes a lack of confidence,
[1229.2] the failure that results,
[1231.0] how they'd kind of climb out of rock bottom
[1232.8] and the lessons they've learned,
[1234.3] which are relevant to all of us.
[1237.1] So imagine successful women from different parts of the globe,
[1241.1] one by one, getting on stage, sharing about a massive failure.
[1246.3] What do you think was the most common comment in the chat?
[1250.4] Something like me too or that's refreshing.
[1257.5] Somebody's saying it out loud or something along those lights.
[1260.5] Laurie, you nailed it exactly.
[1262.5] Like, oh my gosh, me too.
[1265.5] Me too, me too, me too.
[1268.5] Followed by exactly what you said.
[1270.5] That's so refreshing.
[1271.5] I feel so much better.
[1272.5] I've been caring around so much shame for so long.
[1277.5] And I saw that.
[1279.5] I was like, oh my gosh.
[1281.5] high-achieving, ambitious, successful, working hard,
[1285.4] making an impact women, like we really need to talk more
[1288.7] about failure because we are all having failures,
[1292.4] setbacks, disappointments all the time.
[1295.6] And for many of us, it really takes its toll, right?
[1299.5] Like it's leaving unhealed scars.
[1301.6] Like it's worst of all, it's often leaving people feeling
[1305.9] ashamed or it's preventing them from moving ahead
[1310.7] and aiming high and making their biggest contribution
[1314.3] that they can make, right?
[1316.1] We need yours and everyone who's listening.
[1319.2] We need you to be leading and being bold and innovative
[1323.9] and entrepreneurial and making your biggest contribution.
[1328.1] Hearing other leaders, talk about how they're experiencing
[1333.6] those same setbacks, humiliations, failures
[1338.6] can be incredibly empowering to know that you're not alone.
[1342.1] I think that's, you know, at the end of the day,
[1343.9] that's what the reaction was in the chat,
[1345.9] like, oh, I'm not alone.
[1348.2] And so that gave me the idea for this book,
[1351.3] and I was fortunate to partner with a co-author
[1354.8] who had also been thinking about writing a book about failure.
[1358.5] And what we've been able to do in this book
[1360.5] is uncover the social science research,
[1362.9] like why does failure hit so hard for many women?
[1367.7] And it really begins when we're girls,
[1370.1] not a lessons like social science really shows
[1373.6] that females are held to a higher standard.
[1376.8] There's a lot less leniency about mistakes.
[1380.6] So, you know, we're, it's not for nothing
[1386.4] that many of us are afraid and have shame around failure.
[1389.6] Like we have learned over time
[1393.1] that those that were often not given second chances
[1396.4] that were berated, that were told, oh, you're not ready.
[1400.7] And we're not given as much grace in many cases
[1403.9] as men are, for example.
[1406.4] And it's even more punishing if you're
[1408.4] a woman of color or a different sexual orientation
[1410.8] and so on.
[1412.7] And so we felt like sharing that information was important.
[1416.5] This is the playing field that we're on.
[1419.9] We also felt it was important to offer a framework
[1423.3] and concrete takeaways for leaders to be able to improve their relationship with failure.
[1431.5] And one of the things, ways that you can do that is by actually naming what is the kind of
[1436.2] failure I'm having.
[1437.2] So at the beginning of this conversation, we talked, for example, about perceived failure.
[1442.5] Like you feel confident in the decisions that you're making, but other people might perceive
[1447.5] them as not being the right decisions.
[1449.6] And that gets projected and put on you.
[1452.9] We've also talked about that paralysis kind of failure where it's like you can't move forward
[1457.6] with an idea because you're afraid it might not work.
[1460.1] You're afraid of what people will say.
[1461.4] You're afraid that you're going to make a mistake.
[1462.9] You're afraid that you're going to fail.
[1464.8] And that's where people can end up in situations where the biggest failure is not trying
[1470.2] at all.
[1472.1] And then there's also some failures like, like you make a mistake, like it's clear,
[1475.9] you were responsible for adding up the numbers and you added them up wrong.
[1481.5] Well, just because you have that kind of, I'm going to call it black and white, but concrete
[1486.1] black and white failure doesn't make you a failure.
[1489.1] It just means like you had a failure, like you overlooked, you made a mistake at something.
[1493.9] And sometimes, and I think we can all relate to this is when you get, have circumstantial failure.
[1498.0] I mean, you get caught up in like a failure that is not of your making, but it gets pinned
[1503.3] on you or partially pinned on you and you're just like dragged into the mess of that failure.
[1507.3] And that can feel very unfair and we can often feel very resentful about that.
[1512.2] So one of the, I guess, takeaways I'd love to leave with our audience here is that if you
[1518.7] have a failure, take a step back and consider what kind of failure have you just experienced
[1525.7] because that can help you understand that this is, it help you understand a way to kind
[1531.8] of look at the failure.
[1532.8] Like if it's so consensual failure,
[1536.0] for a long time, right place, you know?
[1538.6] Oh, own what you need to own of it.
[1540.7] Fix what you need to fix of it and move on.
[1545.0] People are failing all the time,
[1546.5] but it's not that successful leaders aren't failing.
[1549.1] It's just that their relationship with failure
[1551.1] is a healthy one where they can look at it,
[1554.5] own what there's to own, extract the learning
[1557.6] that there is to extract and like move on.
[1564.7] So helpful.
[1565.7] I think all of us probably have the wheels in our head
[1568.0] turning and flashbacks of memories of either our own failures
[1572.4] or failures that were blamed on particular individuals.
[1575.8] And you mentioned, I think we,
[1577.4] I've personally seen this in my own career journey
[1580.8] of myself and other women where, you know,
[1584.4] growing up as a little girl in school,
[1585.7] you get that message that you got to be perfect.
[1587.8] And you can't make mistakes because their way
[1590.5] to have more heavily than the boys will be boys comments
[1593.3] or even now in our society where we see women being very
[1597.6] vilified for mistakes and men getting away
[1599.8] with full on crimes and networks of crimes.
[1602.5] So the message is pretty clear.
[1604.6] But at the same time, that's why we bring different voices
[1607.7] around the table to help us solve these problems
[1609.7] to give us these different perspectives.
[1611.2] So I've really enjoyed your perspective today.
[1613.3] Both your research, your own lived experience,
[1615.3] your writing, the different three kind of main areas
[1618.5] that you're working and the different hats that you wear.
[1620.5] and it's just been very, very impactful to speak with you today.
[1624.1] As we finish up here, I will have you come over to our
[1627.8] Difference Maker community.
[1628.8] We're all asking you there more in depth about what you could
[1631.2] tell your younger self if you could.
[1633.6] So everybody here, not on DifferenceMakers, find us on
[1635.5] patreon.com slash a world of difference.
[1637.5] But as we're finishing up here, Fiona, I'd love for you to
[1640.1] tell us where we can find you and more of your writing and
[1642.8] more of your work.
[1644.0] Thank you.
[1645.2] So for information about the wild network and specifically the
[1648.7] Leadership for Social Impact Forum,
[1651.3] you can go to www.wildleadershipforum.org.
[1659.2] You can also find us at thewildnetwork.org.
[1663.8] And if you're interested in the next chapter accelerator
[1667.2] at our in our Camino walking retreat,
[1669.0] we have four places left in September,
[1671.9] a late September, 2026,
[1674.3] and you can find us there at nextchaptoraccelerator.com.
[1678.7] And then finally, for information about AIM Hi Bounce Back,
[1682.7] you can find it at your local bookstore or on Amazon and also through my website,
[1688.4] which is fionomacolly.com.
[1691.1] I'll spell Macaulay because it's a bit of a bear.
[1693.6] That's fioNA.
[1696.0] M-A-C-A-U-L-A-Y.com.
[1702.7] So I hope to see you through one of those different portals.
[1706.9] Thank you so much for sharing your why, what you're doing, the difference you're making
[1711.5] and for being with us here today, Fiona.
[1713.9] Thanks, Lori.
[1714.9] What a conversation.
[1715.9] I hope you're walking away from this one feeling a little more permission to be in the
[1720.6] messy middle because that's where the real transformation happens.
[1726.3] If this episode moved you, I need you to do three things.
[1729.8] First, subscribe wherever you're listening so you never miss an episode.
[1733.8] In second, leave a review at a world of differencepodcast.com slash reviews slash new or
[1738.5] wherever you hear your podcast.
[1740.6] These reviews are how new listeners find us and every single one of those matters.
[1745.9] And third, share this episode with one woman in your life who needs to hear it or maybe
[1751.1] a man who's married to a woman who needs to support her as she's walking through it.
[1754.9] You know who she is, you know who he is.
[1757.1] Find Fiona McCollay at her website and for our different makers on Patreon, there is a
[1762.7] a whole extra conversation waiting for you.
[1765.1] Fiona answered one more question
[1766.9] that we do not air here,
[1768.4] and trust me, you wanna hear it.
[1770.3] Head to our Patreon to get that exclusive episode.
[1773.2] You can head to patreon.com slash a world of difference,
[1776.0] or also visit aworldoferencepodcast.com
[1778.5] for more resources past episodes and show notes.
[1781.4] Until next time, your voice matters.
[1784.5] Your difference is your strength,
[1786.8] and you are not alone.
[1789.5] I'm Laura Adams Brown,
[1790.5] And this has been a world of difference.
[1792.6] Thank you, Difference Makers, for being here.
[1795.3] Not just for listening, for being the kind of person
[1798.8] who shows up for conversations, just like this one.
[1802.4] Because you believe the world gets better
[1805.0] when we understand each other more.
[1808.1] And that is who Difference Makers are, and you are one of them.
[1812.1] There are two ways to go even deeper on Patreon
[1815.6] at patreon.com slash a world of difference.
[1818.7] For $7 a month, you get bonus conversations and community.
[1823.5] 25 gets you into the room where the real talk happens,
[1827.5] live every quarter with me directly.
[1830.4] On sub-stack, paid subscribers get full essays,
[1833.5] no paywall and a monthly live conversation,
[1836.3] where I say the things I can't say anywhere else.
[1839.0] Links to both of those are in the show notes,
[1840.7] and I would love for you to join me in both of those places.
[1843.9] If this episode stayed with you,
[1845.8] share it with five people you know
[1847.4] who need this right now.
[1849.7] That is how we grow this,
[1851.0] and that is how we grow ourselves at the same time.
[1855.1] I am Lori Adams Brown,
[1856.5] until next time, difference makers,
[1858.9] go keep making a difference.