[0.3] If I had my way, reading on the search for it be an Olympic sport and covering every surface
[6.4] with books considered the pinnacle of a territory design.
[10.0] So you can imagine how delighted I have to partner with Read a Ramen for this episode.
[15.9] Read a Ramen is the second handbooks marketplace where the sellers are readers, the prices
[19.9] are genuinely good, and every book you buy raises funds for schools, charities and reading
[24.8] initiatives across the UK.
[27.4] your books a second life and be part of something good. Find your next read at
[32.0] readarama.com. She talks about the shitty committee in
[41.5] his own head. And she says you just have to tell the shitty committee to just
[46.1] buy their place, pipe down. It's so fantastic that feeling of euphoria that you
[52.0] have when you're working and the children are in good shape and works going
[56.4] well and the sun is shining and you like what you're wearing and you're like
[58.9] God I'm absolutely invincible."
[62.5] That's Dolly Jones.
[64.2] Dolly was editor of Vogue.com for 12 years before being promoted to content and strategy
[69.2] director cross-condenas to wider portfolio.
[72.5] After Dolly had her first babe, she went back to work very happily, but just couldn't seem
[77.3] to find the guidance she needed to help navigate the way forward.
[81.4] That experience eventually became her book, leaving the ladder down, hard to combine
[86.4] career and motherhood from the woman who've done it. It collates the voices of all sorts of women
[92.0] who have made working work for them. Now, alongside her writing, Dolly is building a portfolio
[98.5] career. She strips away the awfulness around the idea of networking, reminding us it's really just
[104.8] about staying in touch with the friends and colleagues we liked anyway, and also shares the advice her
[110.0] lovely dad gave her 20 years ago, that's still giving her confidence today. Welcome to the wobbly
[116.1] middle. A podcast for women rethinking their careers in midlife. Hi Dolly, I'm
[123.3] speaking to you in a week where you can't cross the road for being run down by a bus
[128.5] advertising the devil wears product too. It's been 20 years since we first met Anne Hathaway's
[135.5] character Andy Sacks and that was right at about the time you were editing Vogue online.
[142.5] Can you take us back to that world? Yes it's amazing how many people have
[147.4] have asked me in my life whether my job was very like the devil wears Prada.
[151.1] And the answer is I'm afraid yeah, I mean yes a lot of it was similar. In fact, I did see the
[156.6] second film the other day and I felt uncomfortable partly the nostalgia I feel uncomfortable
[162.4] with because it's so far away from me now that part of my life. But I also feel discomfort
[167.3] with the fact that I was in the thick of an industry that is basically I now look back
[171.6] with hindsight and see it was trying to sell things to people that they didn't need and
[175.8] it was to make people, well it made people feel uncomfortable
[179.6] if they didn't look a certain way or feel part of a certain set.
[184.8] But there was also, I recognise,
[187.2] there was a lot of the beauty and the creativity and the fun.
[190.7] I mean, the ridiculous fun.
[192.7] The aspirational nature of that industry
[195.1] is completely utterly founded on truth.
[196.9] I'm interested to know what you think has changed.
[199.5] It's a big question.
[200.7] I think it's a really interesting question.
[202.5] I've changed certainly.
[204.4] I think having children, and now they are 11 and 13,
[208.7] and we talk obviously a lot about screen time
[210.9] and the benefits or not they're in.
[213.8] And I remember that I was creating a website
[216.6] and growing social media channels for Vogue,
[219.4] which we're trying to encourage our audience
[221.5] as big an audience as possible to be online as often
[223.7] as possible for as long as possible.
[226.2] I have a sense of responsibility now
[227.8] that I didn't have then.
[229.3] And I don't feel ashamed of it because in the context
[231.8] the media environment then we didn't then know that future learnings. But certainly that
[238.4] is on my conscience. Have magazines changed? No, I don't think so. If you read them,
[245.4] it's the same sense of trying to be first with a story, the same sense of elegance and
[250.3] aesthetic and quality. I think the appetite has changed because we're all scrolling through
[255.5] our phones and seeing so much so quickly that perhaps sitting down with the magazine feels
[259.5] like, you know, I certainly don't have time, but it is a treat. But it is a treat. But gosh,
[266.1] if I had a treat, if I had time to spend half an hour doing something that was a treat, I would
[271.3] probably want to call you in chat. You know what I mean rather than sit down. It would be a treat,
[276.4] but it might not be the first thing I come to because life is so busy. There are other priorities.
[281.1] Yeah. I think that nostalgia thing is interesting, especially because in the news has been the demise
[287.7] of or certainly there's been a big colour glamour magazine and glamour did try to respond
[293.2] at Wint, did you tell them 2018 that was probably still in your time at Canyon asked and
[300.8] yeah wonder where you see the magazine going.
[306.7] It's amazing to have this conversation today yesterday I was at the funeral of Mrs.
[310.5] Burstein who was the founder of Browns which was an incredible and fashion
[315.1] and Emporium on South Morton Street in Mayfair.
[317.1] And she was an incredible person.
[319.3] She turned 100 earlier this year.
[321.1] And we were gonna have her birthday party
[323.1] in Clarages where she frequented in July,
[325.8] but sadly shortly after her birthday she died.
[327.7] Anyway, at her funeral yesterday,
[329.7] the great and the good of the old school fashion world
[332.4] were there.
[333.2] It was absolutely extraordinary.
[334.6] And life is really different now.
[337.3] But the creativity and the enthusiasm
[340.1] and the elite feeling of fashion was very much in force
[343.7] yesterday. Were the magazines go, if I knew that, it would be impossible to say, but I remember
[350.1] when we talked about, because when glamour was moved to digital first, I was then content
[355.8] and strategy director of Condenast. I'd left Vogue then and I'd been promoted into the kind of
[360.0] job that was across the portfolio. So there were many discussions as to how glamour would change,
[365.9] as it went digital first, and we discussed possibly turning it into a sort of emulation of a
[371.4] British version of Teen Vogue, which was very much the voice of the younger woman and the leading
[377.1] conversations, the moral conversations and the Me Too movements and that the major loud female
[383.8] led empowering conversations of the time and the decision was because this was a commercial
[388.9] decision because it had to continue to make money to employ everybody so they could stop calling
[393.9] them, was to go with a beauty led title because of course that was going to bring the advertises in.
[399.9] And I thought that was a great shame that the commercial requirements should lead to the content.
[405.9] I can see why. It's very difficult to get people to advertise around conversations that may otherwise feel contentious
[411.9] or bring to mind conversations that include people who may be connected with the advertisers.
[416.9] But I thought it was a great shame and I think that those conversations lead digital engagement and audiences with a greater longevity.
[426.9] You'd been at Vogue for about 12 years when you had your first babe.
[431.9] Yes, but that, yes, yes.
[434.7] And that catapulted you into something completely different, which ultimately ended up in your book, leaving the ladder down.
[445.5] Yes, that's right.
[446.9] How did you feel leaving something so fast moving?
[452.9] you know the fear that had my move on with Alchoo. Were you afraid of that?
[458.0] Absolutely I was. And I think lots of people are but it's not spoken about.
[462.9] I loved my job. I felt, I mean 12 years in a running vogue.com and building the team and going
[468.8] to all the shows internationally and really being in the thick of the sort of front line of the
[473.5] fashion these extraordinary creative people. I was worried, not actually from losing my place in
[479.9] in the industry but invoke certainly.
[482.8] Because you're, you know,
[484.2] people kind of have a little cupcake party for you
[486.3] and say, bye, have a lovely break.
[488.9] And don't worry about us, we'll carry on here.
[491.1] And it's like, it's almost like leaving a baby.
[493.3] And the babysit are not taking any notice
[495.3] of the instructions about this
[496.4] is one of the baby we want to eat or what I want to sleep
[498.4] or all of that.
[499.2] And I was like, no, I'm not worried about it,
[501.4] but I'd like to have a conversation about
[503.5] how and when I'm in touch.
[505.0] And it felt like it was assumed I was just fading away.
[509.2] and I was 100% planning to come back with as much enthusiasm
[512.4] and dedication as ever.
[514.3] So that was quite odd.
[516.2] But then when I did come back, you feel up and running.
[519.4] First of all, I was with the baby for about five months
[521.5] and then I was terrified of coming back
[523.5] because I didn't realize how worried I'd be about leaving him.
[526.8] But then you get over that.
[527.8] And then when I did get back to the office,
[529.9] I felt up and running very rapidly,
[532.1] which is a really nice surprise.
[533.4] And I think it's common to lots of people in the book.
[535.6] Yeah, it is common and it's wonderful to be back using your brain in that way.
[543.6] Yeah.
[544.4] There was so much in your book about the complexity of feelings around everything we know of
[551.0] modern motherhood.
[552.9] And when I took some time off, my children were a bit older, I felt very resentful of the daily
[562.4] tools that needed to be done because I got zero dopamine adrenaline hit from doing anything.
[569.1] It didn't give me a buzz the same buzz that I'd had. So when I go back to doing something,
[574.8] go back in the office, it feels really good to finish things, to achieve things, to work with other
[580.8] adults. Yeah. And there was just lots of new book, lots of moments where that conflict plays out
[586.9] the whole time. We do make choices. It's a very part in our life, we work more flexibly and that's
[592.0] really important for us. But just because you're making a choice, it doesn't mean that it is a perfect fit.
[599.7] No, absolutely. And there's something to acknowledge last night, as I say, I was at this funeral,
[605.3] and I felt despite I was close to Mrs. B, whose funeral it was, and so it was a very emotional day.
[611.7] But then I was also suddenly back in the thick of all these fashion people who I hadn't seen for
[615.7] some time. It felt similar to a working sort of event. And then I was late home and then I dashed
[623.3] in and my husband was abroad and I had to cook supper on my children have exams this week.
[627.4] So I literally ran in the door, ripped off my funeral garb, stuck on some jeans and a top
[633.3] started to cook supper, started to help with revision, provided dinner, read to them both so that
[638.9] they got time to bed on time and slept well. All of that was all of that is work. And my husband
[643.7] did say at one point I was not working during lockdown and I was finnying incredibly low
[647.8] because I felt I wasn't achieving or contributing and putting too much pressure on him financially
[652.7] and losing a sense of myself somehow because I was homeschooling with children and holding
[657.7] that part of life together. And he said, if we were paying somebody else to do what you
[663.3] have done today, that would have been expensive. So why don't you sort of mentally give
[667.4] yourself 50 quid every time you cook lunch and 60 quid every time you cook your bar?
[671.7] the end of the week you can kind of tot up quite a good income. And it was weirdly helpful.
[677.3] It was weird that that sort of self-validation albeit a lie. It made me realise how much
[682.2] validation I get from professional work and how little validation I give myself for literally
[689.4] what I did last night, changing costume as soon as I got in the door and providing all this
[693.5] stuff that is really valuable and if you paid somebody else to do it would be really
[699.0] costly. I think it's hard for us to give ourselves that validation when it's it's not reflected
[707.0] by the rest of the world. Yes. We get caught in this bind of if we work we're not being
[713.1] a very good parent and if we're parenting we're not being very ambitious or professional
[718.5] colleague. And I think there is a cultural, a very deep-rooted cultural assumption that
[727.4] Maybe we shouldn't be working.
[729.9] Maybe all the self doubt is based on the fact that I am doing the wrong thing.
[735.9] So we have to work hard to make conversations more cheerful and open and celebratory about
[741.6] working parents because it's brilliant.
[744.1] It's so fantastic with that feeling of euphoria that you have when you're working and
[749.7] the children are in good shape and you've had a good journey to work and work is going
[753.7] well and the sun is shining and you like what you're wearing and you're like, God, I'm
[756.7] absolutely invincible. And it's not every day, but there are days like that that make you think
[762.9] everything is possible. And they help fuel the survival of the more challenging days. But it
[769.2] was that euphoria I was trying to get in the book from all the different awareness book to
[772.9] to because to change this sort of prevailing reputation of a working parent of being
[779.1] knackered and stressed and having porridge in my hair and you know my children are miserable and
[783.5] and my relationship is breaking down and I'm failing at work as well.
[787.3] Because actually that looks quite good on screen sometimes in the various brilliant, hilarious,
[792.0] you know, comedy series.
[793.7] But it's not reflective of what we do every day.
[796.0] And also the impact on our relationships when you feel that you've done something for
[800.8] filling in a day, then that has such a positive overflow on the rest of your relationships.
[806.5] Absolutely.
[807.5] Like if you've failed at anything and then it, you know, underpins your mood for the day
[810.4] and therefore how you interact with your family or your colleagues.
[813.3] feeling good about yourself. You're achieved. You ride high on that and so does everybody else
[818.5] around you. You can see that reflected in, even when the book came out. My children,
[825.8] more excited about it than I was. Therefore, I hope that that means that they'll go,
[829.7] I want to do that one day, not necessarily write a book, but whatever achievements are in their
[834.1] head in terms of daydreams, that things can come true. Yes, your personal experiences very much
[841.2] woven into this book and just holding this, you know, there's something about holding a book's very
[851.7] restorative sort of nourishing and then I opened it and it said in memory of my father,
[858.1] Hume Jones, he used to say there's no such word as Kant. I just found a very emotional reading
[865.4] that about your dad because I know he used to write to you once a week as did my dad. Did he?
[872.4] And there's so much overflow about how we raised and then how we parent and that's so mixed up
[881.1] in how we judge ourselves. Yeah. Something else about your dad. He wrote to you about friendship.
[889.1] Yes. Which seems like, do you mind reading what he wrote to you? No, gosh, I think we may be crying.
[894.3] So he used to write to me as he said every week I was at boarding school and he wrote
[898.5] me a letter in 2002 I think and there wasn't any particular reason for this sort of life
[904.2] lecture he gave me but there were just some really fundamental pieces of advice and on
[908.5] friendship as he said he said keep calling friends who like you very much even if they
[913.0] are pierced and offish. They are not really but lead busy lives and don't get round to
[918.2] things. I've always found that I've had to work on friends just as I do clients in a
[923.8] a different way of course, but it needs doing.
[927.5] I thought that's quite unconventional for
[930.8] Man of his time to speak to you about investing in friendships.
[934.6] It's amazing, isn't it?
[935.8] I wish it was alive.
[936.8] So I could really invest in that with him.
[939.6] So many men and I don't want to generalize too much,
[943.3] but so many of them have their three best friends from school.
[946.3] Yes, it's interesting.
[947.2] For the rest of their lives.
[948.6] And I just think of the richness of community and women.
[953.6] and their friendship building and how in your book you talk about the importance of just
[959.4] these shared experiences are fact patterns are all different. But knowing that your experience
[967.4] has valid, women are so much better talking.
[969.9] Yes, it's interesting. I mean, my father was an estate agent and we lived in Hampshire.
[974.8] These sold sort of big country houses in estates and things. And if somebody was going to
[978.5] sell their big country house in a state, he needed them to know him and like him. So he
[982.6] networked all the time and his job was very much, you know, the social life was combined
[988.3] within the job.
[989.3] He and my mother would go to understand parties and my mother considered her part of his
[992.3] work because she was, you know, chatting people up and generally being interesting, entertaining
[996.4] at these dinner parties which would eventually lead to a sale.
[1000.4] And so in fact, when he died, we had his memorial service and 1300 people came.
[1005.4] I was standing room only in Winter's Cathedral and he was an estate agent.
[1009.7] He wasn't a sort of, you know, figure of state, whatever.
[1012.4] And I think because people really liked him and he did, clients were like friends and
[1017.3] clients became friends and friends became clients.
[1020.4] And I think as I've grown older, certainly since I left Vogue and then I set up the consultancy
[1023.9] and yesterday again is a good example.
[1026.2] I could feel a bit shy yesterday, I haven't seen these people for a while, they were quite
[1029.3] scary, fashion people, maybe they were much more senior to me.
[1033.0] And yet yesterday, there we all were all human beings, at a funeral assembly, we all
[1037.1] hugely loved and respected.
[1039.4] And I'm so glad that I'm still in touch with them and feel able to perhaps get in touch
[1043.8] and say I'm doing this now and can you be involved or some of the people from fashion
[1047.3] who are in the book?
[1048.3] I felt shy about calling on them, but you can be brave about that in the same way that
[1053.6] you can be brave and kind of continually do what my father advises, which is keep people
[1058.2] going, keep working on it.
[1059.2] But there's also something in the first line that's about confidence.
[1063.7] Do you think we can apply that to this next stage of our life about being kind of to
[1069.1] ourselves, bolstering our confidence, being brave. And as we feel our ambition
[1076.2] returning, believing that we can do something you're an exciting. Yes, I think we
[1082.3] can. I think we need to be really good at reading the barometer of our confidence
[1087.7] and being able to speak honestly, and I'm not quite sure how to do this and
[1092.3] supporting each other. And I went to an event the other day with to talk about the
[1095.5] book and we ended up talking about what I'm going to be doing next.
[1098.9] And I wonderfully being invited to give lots of talks about the book and really try to engage
[1105.0] conversations within businesses for women to talk about pre-children or during or post what
[1111.8] they might need and to open up these conversations to be curious and engaging rather than
[1116.2] fearful and shame-filled and a bit frightened.
[1119.0] HR is scared of talking about in the wrong way and women are frightened to admit that they
[1123.2] might want to have children. And at my stage it's amazing how many offers I'm getting to go and
[1127.9] give talks about the book but there's apparently no fee. And I have to say I'm afraid this is my
[1133.9] livelihood. I'd love to come and just talk to your business for free but that's not. I go on to
[1138.2] a gondler for to do that. I have a mortgage to pay. And I feel huge shame in saying that and in
[1143.1] talking about money and talking to other women my sort of age about how they have now started doing
[1148.8] something completely differently and talking about money and being really open about it and
[1152.8] really clear about it. It's no surprise. And once you do say I can't come with
[1157.0] there's no budget, you can bet your life that they find budget. And so it's
[1161.0] about being confident that what we are offering is valuable and it is
[1168.0] valuable because of our experience and what we have to offer.
[1172.0] I think for a lot of us and your environment is quite an interesting one. It was,
[1177.4] you know, the media industry has changed so much. And sometimes we can't go
[1181.8] back to what we were doing. What is your advice to someone who wears time for them to go exploring?
[1190.6] Yeah, it's interesting. It's different for everybody. I think for me it's about casting a side
[1199.0] a sense of I should know the answer. I should have a plan. I can't show vulnerability by saying,
[1204.9] oh I'm not quite sure what to do with this now. When I was promoting the hardback of the book,
[1209.7] I did a talk with David Gandhi, the male model.
[1213.4] And his former agent, Shah Kasey, came to watch.
[1218.2] And afterwards we went for a drink to celebrate
[1220.5] the event and she said to me, please,
[1223.0] will you write another book called,
[1225.4] How to Find the Ladder when you've lost sight of it?
[1228.2] And I said, well, if you feel like you're floundering,
[1230.4] why don't you work with me to help me publicize
[1232.8] the paperback and we could work together
[1234.2] and you can kind of find your feet
[1235.3] and get your confidence back and see what happens next?
[1238.2] So anyway, that's what we're doing.
[1239.5] she's now my agent.
[1241.1] But that is it's such an example.
[1243.0] She kind of showed a sense of vulnerability.
[1245.1] And within seconds of doing something,
[1247.2] there was an opportunity.
[1248.8] Yeah, exactly.
[1250.0] So I think to talk to each other and sort of say,
[1252.2] this is my doubt about myself.
[1254.4] And then when somebody gives you a compliment says,
[1256.5] oh, this is how I see you.
[1258.1] This is what I think you could do to take it.
[1260.1] People don't lie.
[1261.1] People don't say nice things just to fill the air.
[1264.6] Listen to people's perception of you.
[1266.6] And grow your next move from that.
[1269.0] I think could be one way of, yeah, fueling your sense of yourself.
[1276.2] And I think that is also women need to get better at reaching out and joining each other
[1281.2] all up.
[1282.2] Yes, and identify where the gaps are.
[1284.1] There's a wonderful woman, June and July, who's a venture capitalist, but she's now setting
[1287.8] up a thing to highlight the potential success in portfolio careers.
[1295.0] She talks very openly about the different coaching she's had and the benefits of
[1299.0] those different coaching be it confidence before she goes on stage to make a speech or how to
[1303.4] monetize her skills and her talents. And so asking for advice from the right people, identifying
[1309.3] where your confidence gaps are and finding the people who have filled those gaps or naturally
[1316.8] didn't have those gaps and not being afraid to ask the question. And judgment is interesting.
[1322.6] you're often judging yourself harsher than ever. I'm asking, yes, there's Julia Samuels in the book
[1329.0] who's a very well known psychotherapist and she talks about the shitty committee in
[1335.0] his own head and she says you just have to tell the shitty committee to just
[1340.6] know their place, pipe down exactly. And once you sort of animate them, the
[1347.0] imagine the shitty committee in your head as a set of people who you really don't need in your
[1350.6] life for this particular conversation. It's much easier to just kind of dial them down.
[1356.1] I think it's common to most humans, men and women, children. We all do have this sense
[1362.6] of second guessing what the negatives might be about what we're doing. It's never, ever
[1367.0] helpful. Far better to tell yourself you're doing a good job or if you're not sure
[1370.6] somebody else and listen to their arms run, their judgment of you.
[1374.8] Also thinking about anxiety as we take these steps and our bodies changing and feeling
[1380.5] very hormonal sometimes sleepless nights, all those things. And again, I read something about
[1388.9] one of your little tricks when you get into bed. Do you know what I'm talking about?
[1393.4] Yes. It was from the therapist actually. I was feeling just generally dreadful about
[1397.6] myself for some whatever reason it was at that time. It went to the therapist and I've
[1401.5] done that intermittently throughout my life. And she said, why don't you list the achievements
[1406.2] of the day when you go to bed at night. Small things, not huge professional achievements,
[1413.2] but you made your children laugh or you cooked something that went well or you changed
[1418.5] the sheets and you're feeling comfortable in those tiny little incremental things.
[1422.2] Once you list all of those, it's incredibly calming. If you take a moment to go, I did
[1426.3] that and I did that and you go, oh god, I'm doing really well actually. I can stop panicking
[1432.4] about what I haven't done and fill that space in my brain with the things that I have done.
[1438.0] And it just slows down that shitty committee, just dials the negative volume down.
[1444.5] And you're thinking about going forward, you're thinking about possibly writing another
[1448.5] book. Do you feel open about what's happening next? Do you have a view of where you're
[1454.0] going? There are various different avenues. There's a little bit of a portfolio career
[1459.8] sort of developing. They've got some good conversations going on for a couple of different book ideas.
[1466.0] One is nonfiction which is looking more likely. The ultimate success for me is writing fiction.
[1471.9] That's what I'm most scared of because I think it'll be most difficult for me.
[1476.3] But also this book has spawned so many conversations and it's wonderful because people are
[1483.6] often saying God I've never spoken about this before and it tends to be in a group of women
[1487.4] and it's changing the way people are talking to their employers and it's having an impact on people's
[1491.9] careers. And one woman read it and got in touch with me via LinkedIn and said that she'd then
[1498.6] given it as a present to her colleague who was going on maternity leave. She said this woman giving
[1502.4] the book was the boss and she said to her colleague who was going away to have her second baby,
[1507.9] give me a ring when you've read the book. Let me know if you want to talk about anything that's
[1511.4] the book throws up. And so the employee did ring her and she burst into tears and said I feel like a
[1517.2] full I wanted to ask for promotion before I went on maternity leave, but because I was having
[1521.6] my second baby I felt like it was mixed messages and I couldn't put myself up for promotion.
[1526.3] So they had a long chat about all of the different themes in the book and so as a result
[1529.8] she's been put up for promotion when she comes back.
[1532.6] And stories like that make me feel massively validated and that the book is going to land
[1539.8] with women right when and where they need it.
[1543.2] So I want to drive the book as much as possible to reach so many women, feeling just guilty
[1548.2] like I did when I first went back to work or feeling not quite sure how to play it.
[1553.4] So I don't want to stop promoting the Birkentillists.
[1555.7] It's got all the women who need it.
[1558.1] And what piece of advice would you give to your 30-year-old self about where you are today?
[1565.5] Well, the one I always think back to which is most powerful is that you can change your
[1570.4] mind.
[1571.4] I think. I think I thought that deciding to go back to work full time might be a terrible
[1576.6] mistake and I might do some irrecoverable harm. And I wish I just relax and said,
[1583.4] it's fine if it's wrong, you can change your mind. And secondly, I think that I wish
[1590.0] I had a slightly goes back to my dad's advice that every single person you ever meet
[1596.3] is potentially going to be part of a future opportunity.
[1601.2] So don't feel shy.
[1602.5] Even if you haven't spoken to the profile,
[1604.6] they're still part of your network.
[1606.2] And actually, I've really learned with a book
[1608.3] that I've got back in touch with people I worked with years ago,
[1611.0] thinking, oh God, perhaps they weren't worth this odd.
[1613.4] And everybody's always pleased.
[1614.7] So I think from the very, very earliest point of your career,
[1618.5] actually you're building a wonderful mental role
[1620.8] of the ex of people who might roll
[1622.5] into any future part of your life.
[1624.4] and I could have been more confident with that in my life.
[1629.2] This season of The Wobbly Middle,
[1630.9] as you know, is the woman who bring us the sunshine.
[1633.9] And I wanted to end on a sunny note
[1636.5] in Amaj to glamour magazine.
[1639.7] And end with the summer edit.
[1641.9] So, you know, mentally flicked to the back of the magazine
[1645.6] where they say, what's the one thing?
[1648.5] So tell me, your dream holiday.
[1651.2] My dream holiday, I was 50 at Christmas
[1653.9] and we went to Sri Lanka and the Maldives.
[1656.2] We never did anything like that.
[1657.6] It was spectacular.
[1659.0] My dream holiday is sunshine and beautiful water
[1662.9] and enough activities for my children
[1664.4] to be happy doing so that I can lie back
[1666.7] and read my book and eat good food.
[1668.7] And your summer read would be.
[1670.7] My summer read was, or at least last year I read,
[1673.5] which I want everybody to read, God, I loved it,
[1676.0] is the correspondent for Junior Evans.
[1678.3] Absolutely wonderful.
[1679.5] It's on my list.
[1681.0] And then finally, what's the one thing you wouldn't go on holiday without?
[1687.7] Gosh, it's a good question.
[1689.3] I mean, a book that is a holiday to me reading my book is if I can get up,
[1692.3] I tend to try and get up half an hour earlier than I need to.
[1694.7] So I can have a cup of tea and read my book in bed.
[1696.8] If I do that, I tend to have a much better day than if I haven't had time to do it.
[1701.9] Go to try and do that myself. Thank you so much, Dolly.
[1704.6] It's so lovely to have you on the podcast.
[1707.0] Thank you for having me. I've loved it.
[1710.3] Thank you for listening to The Wobbly Middle.
[1712.1] We'll be back on Tuesday 18 August with Heather Makepiece, a accountant and CEO who retrained
[1718.6] as a hypnotherapist in her 40s.
[1721.3] Heather now helps everyone from burnt-out corporates to ultra-marathon runners rewrite
[1725.5] the beliefs that hold them back.
[1727.8] Follow us wherever you get your podcasts to make sure you never miss an episode.