[3.2] The World Sure feels noisy in the little and more.
[6.3] Same power structures and play books, different tech aid, but same outcomes.
[10.0] What?
[11.0] We need to change the game.
[12.5] But women advancing isn't about fixing women.
[14.5] For busy reorienting leadership for the world we're living in and the one ahead.
[18.5] On your host, Kate Byrne.
[19.8] Each week I talk with the women shaping what's next.
[22.6] Join us as we reset the compass on women advancing.
[33.1] Hey everyone, it's your host, Kate Byrne.
[35.3] What is it, Kate, to build something that lasts?
[37.1] Whether it's a company, a culture, or the stamina to swim from my
[40.5] in open water, like say, oh, English channel.
[44.2] Like one of my guests today did.
[46.2] Well, in this episode of Women in Advanced,
[47.7] and we're gonna find out,
[48.6] because I get to sit down with two women
[50.7] who know a thing or two about endurance,
[53.1] resilience, leading with intention,
[55.6] and the burnout we encounter more and more these days
[58.3] because of such crazy times and ever shifting sands.
[61.6] Miriam Cherisvada, founder of the V-Cort Zass,
[65.0] and previously mentioned, long distance swimmer,
[68.1] brings the perspective of an entrepreneur
[70.5] who's building with the impact of mind.
[72.6] Joining her is Candice Schaffer,
[74.5] founder of the workplace psychologist,
[76.6] who helps leaders and organizations
[78.6] navigate that crazy, messy, and very human side of work.
[82.6] Trust, culture, burnout, and the psychology
[85.8] of building thriving dreams.
[87.9] Together, the three of us are gonna explore
[90.0] what it means to grow with purpose,
[91.8] battling burnout, how to balance grit with grace,
[94.7] and why building trust,
[96.5] whether it be with stakeholders externally,
[99.8] employees, or frankly, and most importantly yourself,
[103.9] may be the most important leadership skill of all.
[107.8] Let me know what you think.
[109.3] Let's dive in.
[111.5] Ah, women advancing crew, we are in for the biggest treat
[116.2] of all today.
[118.3] Why you might ask, well, I'm gonna tell you.
[120.8] Because we have two amazingly powerful
[123.9] and centered individuals who are gonna help
[126.4] us get there, at least for this conversation. So I'd love to welcome Miriam Shareeza
[132.9] Dha, who's the founder of Zass and Dr. Candice Balleru, who's the founder of the workplace
[138.5] psychologist. Welcome welcome to women advancing you too.
[142.1] Thank you for having us. That's my pleasure, my pleasure. So a little background, I've
[148.5] I guess it's been about six, seven years.
[154.6] And one of the things that's interesting is aside
[159.6] from launching ZAS and before that office yoga,
[165.0] which became ZAS, she is an extraordinary long distance swimmer.
[170.1] And I'll let her share a little bit about that.
[173.5] So you can do your horn,
[175.1] because I always think it's good when women do their horns.
[177.7] So with that, I'm gonna start a little bit,
[180.9] kind of teasing that out a bit, Miriam.
[183.4] So what has fired you to actually get zas off the ground?
[187.3] And how, if at all, has, you know,
[190.5] how has long distance swimming experienced
[193.3] or shaped your endurance as a founder?
[197.5] Weaving it all together.
[199.1] So, you know, business, just like open water swimming,
[202.1] there's never perfect conditions, right?
[204.4] So there's always something that comes up.
[206.9] And I started Zass because I was a personal trainer,
[211.2] I was a fitness instructor,
[212.6] and everyone I was working with,
[214.3] whether it was a client or a class,
[215.8] everybody's coming in
[216.7] because they were stressed from work.
[218.3] And so to me, there was a natural transition of,
[221.5] well, if they're coming to me because they're stressed from work,
[223.3] why not bring this to work and get to the root of the cause?
[227.1] This is me at like 25.
[228.8] You know?
[229.6] I don't like the go.
[231.2] Oh, I'm like, you got a real Mary,
[232.6] I'm gonna go to the start's office, you got a guy.
[234.4] And luckily, you know, I was at the right place at the right time and there was a strong need for it.
[240.0] And then off of yoga evolved into ZAS because, you know, people need more than to see yoga in meditation.
[245.8] So ZAS does everything with speaker talks and classes and workshops burnout retreats.
[253.2] So that's what got me into leading ZAS.
[255.6] So I was started as a yoga teacher fitness enthusiast and now here I am a business owner.
[261.0] I never meant to do this.
[265.0] The accidental entrepreneur.
[267.0] But then how about the swimming?
[269.0] Two.
[270.0] The swimming?
[271.0] So I started actually.
[273.0] I was a swimmer at an early age, but I started open water swimming because of grief.
[278.0] I lost my childhood sister in a plane crash.
[281.0] It was very dramatic plane crash.
[283.0] It was all over the news.
[284.0] We saw it on the news before we actually confirmed that she was, you know,
[287.0] you know, it was just that imagine I'm zorbing something that way. And so it was hard for me to
[292.7] process that and I was like, I have two choices. I can go crazy and just go off the rails and let
[299.6] everything fall apart or I could channel this grief in something that is productive and positive.
[305.4] And she loved like Tahoe and I was kind of dabbling in open water at that time. And you know,
[311.0] I just thought I'm gonna swim across like Tahoe, you know, and it was to me at that time was crazy.
[317.0] And so that's kind of what started it all in the training.
[320.5] And it was really an embodiment for her.
[323.6] And you know, I'm still grateful to her for that.
[326.6] Really lovely.
[327.5] And now wanting to share a little bit
[328.9] some of the other waters you have crossed.
[332.7] More recently was the English channel.
[334.7] Thank you very much.
[336.2] For that correctly, everybody.
[338.5] Both all of these waters, by the way, are freezing.
[341.9] Yes, very cold.
[343.2] And the English channel was a four year endeavor.
[345.6] that was not an easy one to cross by any means.
[349.4] So that was the hardest one I've ever done.
[351.3] But I've also swam around San Francisco
[353.3] and around Manhattan.
[355.3] Anybody who I can, I will jump into it.
[358.7] So, oh, wow.
[361.0] All right, well, deep water.
[362.7] We'll talk about jumping in deep.
[364.8] Can't just talk a little bit about the workplace psychologist.
[369.1] And show about that.
[370.9] Yeah, yeah, yeah, but the workplace psychologist
[373.7] is mostly a consulting firm that I created as a result of my work
[378.7] as a psychologist inside some big name companies like Meta
[383.5] and Twitter.
[384.6] And what I do is work with organizations
[389.2] that really want to ensure the health and well-being
[392.6] of their employees.
[394.2] What I realized in working in the luxury of tech
[396.6] is that not everybody can have a psychologist on staff.
[399.5] And to advise them on certain issues and scenarios
[403.3] come up. And so I thought it'd be great to have a consulting firm that really we just work with
[409.9] organizations on how to build policies, how to build programs, what to do in certain circumstances
[416.7] where we didn't anticipate a mental health issue coming up. So I'm really trying to meet my clients
[422.8] where mental health and organizational well-being kind of emerge.
[427.2] Merged. So you know what's really interesting, which I just had a little light bulb moment there.
[432.9] It's interesting to me that a lot of tech companies are the ones who actually have
[439.3] psychologists or organizational behavior. I knew a very renowned one back in the day that Apple had
[445.9] and they probably were early day. But I think that's really interesting and shockingly no offense
[450.7] to everyone listening, but you have to admit it's a little surprising and counterintuitive given the
[455.7] just the work culture. So it's almost as if we're going to help develop you and set yourself
[461.3] set you up because we're not going to change our culture. The culture is what the
[466.0] so suit up man and woman and they them all and grab your paddle and dive in. Is that kind of
[472.9] how it does? Yeah, it does. And it's so a lot of what I learn working in the corporate side is that
[480.1] like psychological burnout is such a pervasive problem because the expectation is that when
[487.1] when you're working for one of these companies,
[488.9] you will be working 70 to 80 hours a week sometimes.
[492.7] And that's a norm.
[493.9] So they would post to me like,
[495.9] how do we make these employees last longer?
[498.7] How do we keep them happy in these jobs?
[502.0] And after a certain point,
[503.8] I've talked with Mary and we're both as many times
[507.5] where it's just like you all need to look in the mirror
[511.2] and look at what you are doing as a company
[514.8] that can provide an environment of psychological safety
[518.3] and recharging and being okay with failure.
[522.1] Well, we'll get into that in a little bit.
[524.4] But so what do you think the biggest blind spot?
[526.2] Would you say that's the biggest blind spot?
[528.5] That these founders and executives miss
[531.2] is that, oh my gosh, it starts with me.
[532.9] I need to kind of be the change.
[534.7] Yes.
[535.6] I would very much agree with that statement
[538.7] that companies don't think about the impact
[542.5] that they have on their own employees
[544.2] the environments that they create, the cultures that they create, they believe that if they
[549.5] hire individuals who are strong enough that they can withstand any kind of environment,
[556.4] it doesn't matter. And so like a lot of times the analogy I give is, you know, if you were
[561.6] at a pet store back in the day when they really had pet store, that's so much. But if you were
[566.9] looking at a fish tank and it had all these goldfish in it and you saw maybe one or two kind of
[573.3] floating at the top. And you're like, oh, you know, that's, that's too bad. And you
[576.5] really didn't make it. But if you saw a whole fish tank that had all of the fish that were
[581.2] just floating at the top of the water, you wouldn't blame the fish. You would say the water needs
[586.8] to be changed or something needs to be switched out. It's not the fish. And this is the same thing
[592.6] that's happening in organizations where we're seeing troves of individuals who are suffering
[598.5] from burnout and other types of anxiety. And the company is just saying, well, that's not
[604.0] really our problem. Here's an EAP, go use them and figure it out.
[609.6] So question for you then, because this is kind of an isolated into grit, right? And you
[615.4] both deal with grit in different ways. What does it actually look like in practice? I'd
[621.2] love to hear how you both sort of see that. And kind of how do you cultivate it? How can
[625.7] you grow it as it were, not like mold, but I would see grit as, you know, it's passion and
[633.7] perseverance for long term goal really. And, you know, Kate, we were just talking about this
[638.9] that before we started recording that we are really trying to change the way that we do business.
[644.5] And you and I have been in the you've been in this longer than I have, but it feels like we've
[648.1] been doing this work for so long. And it's still so novel. Like, it's not concrete in anyone's mind.
[653.7] And there's no real blueprint for it.
[657.3] And to me, that's a long-term goal.
[659.1] And that is so important because that's what's going to really change from the top down
[663.4] and from the bottom up.
[664.4] You know, we need to change the way that we do business in a more holistic way.
[668.1] So for me, the passion and perseverance, the grit that comes from work is just really
[673.0] believing in that.
[674.8] That keeps me motivated every day.
[676.4] Not a can.
[677.4] Can't just help out you.
[679.0] So for me, it's a combination and when I coach executive leaders on this too, it's looking at what is your recharge plan on a regular, almost daily basis.
[692.0] I think a lot of us depend on the week of vacation that's going to happen in six months and we just need to make it until that time.
[700.0] when we need to be very mindful and curate as much as possible,
[704.4] the days that we have for those little moments of recharging,
[708.1] even if it's five minutes, because if we think of ourselves
[711.3] like a cell phone battery, if you put your cell phone on the charger
[715.7] for a week, it's not, that doesn't mean battery's going to last
[719.7] for six months because you put it on a week.
[722.1] Like, batteries don't work like that, neither do we.
[725.2] So we have to really think about what are those
[728.0] opportunities that I have throughout the day that I take five minutes to enjoy my coffee,
[732.9] or take 10 minutes to just play with Baidag, like really kind of restorative practices rather than
[739.2] thinking about how that vacation that's going to make everything better. So yeah, that would be my
[744.2] time. Yeah, because I think that's really true that even just a bite-sized nugget of just, and really
[750.8] what we're talking about is presence, up doing the simple act of where you are and getting
[755.9] simple enjoyment out of a simple thing that just takes you away of that which seems seemingly
[762.9] crazy and that can be incredibly refreshing. I know for myself every once in a while,
[768.2] family laughs at me, but I literally will close my eyes and take what I call snap short
[773.3] nap, 10 minutes as I think and then I knew that up. It's amazing how powerful and refreshed
[779.8] you can feel. Absolutely. And why do you do all that?
[783.5] I've been to work it in and I feel kind of trendy and and do
[787.0] for see for doing it, but you're both can't assure in the
[790.1] Bay Area too.
[791.0] I'm in Seattle.
[792.2] You're going to say, OK, well, same.
[794.3] Very similar culture.
[796.7] I was going to ask, OK, actually even more so because of some of
[800.8] the companies up your way.
[802.6] AI.
[804.7] Right.
[804.9] And it was coming.
[805.6] What?
[806.1] Well, I know everyone's worried about it taking their jobs,
[810.0] et cetera.
[810.7] But that's how do you see, have you seen things amped up?
[815.3] I know, for instance, in the Bay Area, we're hearing all sorts of stories about how San Francisco
[819.6] was coming back to life.
[821.1] And yet, I just was listening to NPR and they were doing a huge report where there's
[826.0] some sort of pink early warning signs that AI is in fact taking jobs away from this group
[834.3] of college graduates.
[837.0] And we're about to see more.
[838.1] So I'm just kind of, how is that impacting both of your realms of practice?
[843.1] So in my sphere, especially even in the therapy world, like AI, chatbots have gotten a lot of momentum around,
[852.7] well, these can be therapists now.
[854.6] And so then therapists are freaking out and saying, well, where's my job, my role.
[860.1] Right.
[861.1] And I encourage people to think about AI not as taking over your job,
[865.8] but more or less being able to take away some of the mind,
[871.1] numbing and rindyockel.
[873.3] Yeah, just tasks that you're not really that thrilled about.
[877.5] So for therapists, they can do our clinical notes
[880.5] and they can just help with touching base
[886.2] with your client when the session isn't happening
[889.4] and seeing how their whole work is going.
[891.5] Like those kinds of things,
[893.1] rather than thinking about they're going to take my job.
[896.4] So AI is a tool.
[898.5] It's not necessarily a replacement
[902.0] would be my biggest suggestion on how to see AI.
[905.2] Yeah, I'm hearing about you.
[907.0] Yeah, in San Francisco, we're kind of at the hub
[910.4] and at the start, we've had this for a while now.
[914.2] And I agree with Candice that it's more of a tool
[917.0] that it'll help people support them.
[918.8] And what they do, I don't think it will take over
[921.8] as many jobs as we think, especially in my world,
[924.4] like I am a yoga teacher, movement modality,
[927.7] like I'm sorry if you're getting the same,
[929.8] like this AI is the odd luck, yeah.
[931.5] Your physical body, like you want another human being
[934.4] to interact with you in that realm.
[936.8] So in my world, I actually feel somewhat
[939.0] air protected and if anything, yoga classes are exploding
[944.4] because I think people are frustrated
[946.9] with the amount of interaction with AI
[949.6] and not enough human connection.
[951.3] So I think we're maybe a little bit ahead of everybody else elsewhere.
[954.5] We're getting sick of it.
[955.8] You know, like we've had self-driving cars for years, like half the year.
[960.5] So we just want to interact with other humans.
[963.8] So I think that there will be a trend eventually kind of going back the other way where we
[967.9] will AI to me as novel.
[970.1] It's new all these virtual reality.
[971.6] Yeah, right.
[972.6] Yeah.
[973.6] But eventually interaction like this is going to be novel again.
[976.8] You know, and I think people are going to crave that.
[978.8] And maybe that's years from now,
[980.2] but I don't see it taking over
[982.6] the way that people are anticipating it to take over.
[985.5] Yeah.
[986.3] No, I definitely agree.
[987.7] And I think,
[988.8] I don't know, I always sort of see it
[990.6] to your point also, Candice says,
[992.7] oh my God, it can take a bunch of the drudgery away.
[995.7] And there are things, the humanistic side,
[999.1] compassion, empathy, there's nuance.
[1001.6] And I don't care how smart it gets,
[1004.7] it won't, it won't pick up on that.
[1006.9] And I really think all the more reason why it's
[1009.5] so important that we work with the folks in the tech
[1012.1] companies is it's the people who are creating the algorithms
[1015.4] that need to be sure that they're getting
[1017.8] rest, that they're not burned out,
[1019.5] that they're not vindictive, they're feeling heard,
[1022.7] and all those sorts of things.
[1024.8] So-
[1025.0] Not the hard wheels.
[1026.0] I think that we need guardrails and rounds,
[1028.0] like ethical, that in place.
[1031.5] And I think the problem is, is the technology is evolving so fast.
[1035.4] hard to keep up with it. So even if there are pauses where we can say, is this really the best
[1041.1] idea? Should we really be allowing AI to be doing quote-unquote therapy or letting them call
[1046.4] themselves therapists? For example, but that's another one of many problems. But to just kind of
[1054.6] go back for a second and just say like, you know, technology, even before AI technology has been
[1060.5] and replacing jobs. AI is one part of technology.
[1064.6] Like when I was in high school,
[1066.5] I used to work as a photo developer
[1069.6] and on our photo lab.
[1071.8] Those jobs don't exist anymore.
[1073.8] And really, the key to resilience is being able
[1076.9] to constantly reinvent yourself
[1078.8] and have multiple interests and options going in front of you.
[1085.4] Yeah, no, I completely agree.
[1088.1] And I think, I do.
[1089.5] I just think there's going to be this time.
[1091.6] In the ironically, it'll bring out to you,
[1095.0] both of your points, the humanity and the hunger for it.
[1098.2] So Mary, I want to ask, you know,
[1101.2] I often reference Steve Jobs and his 2005 commencement
[1105.0] speech, the Stanford, where we talked about everybody
[1108.6] has these times in these ways and their life and their career,
[1112.4] where there are dots, significant dots.
[1116.2] And when you look back at where you are,
[1119.0] He'll realize, oh my gosh, that was,
[1121.6] that was like my key kind of differentiator.
[1124.7] And so I'm kind of wondering,
[1126.7] and then the rest makes sense.
[1128.7] And for him, it was taking that calligraphy class
[1132.7] because that's what made the novelty
[1134.5] of made the Mac so magical question.
[1138.2] Is, do you think, like, as long distance swimming,
[1141.3] do you tap into that?
[1142.6] Do you think that's part of your sort of special magic fairy
[1149.0] just that you draw upon. So like I'm thinking about pace, rhythm, or mental toughness strategy
[1156.7] when you're kind of navigating that whole roller coaster that is called being in business.
[1162.1] Well that's a very good question and a complex question. There's a lot of ways
[1168.5] I think I can answer this. I think what's so grounding about open water swimming for me and
[1175.7] you know, it's kind of ties into the AI conversation we're having is we could be so in our
[1180.2] heads about things and be future tripping about like what is AI going to do or just anything like
[1185.8] we could be very much in our heads and when you're in the water there's really nothing else
[1190.4] you're thinking about. Yes, being in the water especially here in San Francisco Bay area we have
[1196.2] strong currents and we have you know we have wind we have cold water we have strong currents we have
[1201.8] Great whites. Like there's just a lot to there's a lot.
[1205.4] You have a lot.
[1206.3] It's pretty.
[1207.0] You're scared to be like, my son, death.
[1209.1] Off to the cold.
[1210.1] Thank you very much.
[1212.7] So no, I mean, you're in that world.
[1215.0] Everything on land feels a lot less dramatic.
[1220.0] But for me, like when I'm in the water and I'm swimming, it to,
[1223.4] if I'm swimming against the current, I'm swimming in place.
[1225.7] It's so frustrating.
[1227.4] But it reminds me like the tides change every four to six hours.
[1230.8] and it's like the tides will change, you know?
[1232.8] Or you just come back and you try another day.
[1234.9] Like just the current always shifts
[1236.9] if I'm on a very long swim.
[1238.3] I know that the current is always gonna change.
[1240.8] And it's very similar in my duration of business
[1243.8] where men and business as an entrepreneur for 14 years.
[1247.4] And sometimes it feels like I'm swimming with the water.
[1249.7] It's like I'm going with the flow.
[1251.4] Everything's easy breezy.
[1253.1] Like the world is on the same page.
[1255.0] I'm on the same page with the world.
[1256.9] And then there's times like currently
[1258.6] where it feels like I'm just swimming in place.
[1261.6] You know, like wellness, employee health is no longer in
[1264.8] a boge, like it's not, we're not really paying attention
[1267.8] to the environment anymore.
[1268.8] Like these sort of conscientious efforts and thoughts
[1271.2] aren't prioritized in the way that they have been in the past.
[1274.2] And it's very disheartening in the moment,
[1277.0] just like swimming in place.
[1278.6] But I have to remind myself, I've been here before
[1281.2] and the tides will shift.
[1282.7] Like this isn't going anywhere.
[1284.7] Like we do have to prioritize people
[1287.7] and our employees.
[1289.8] And so whether it's momentarily, we forget about them,
[1292.4] it's gonna come back.
[1293.4] Like there will be a shift where we realize
[1296.0] we can't neglect this.
[1297.8] And can't just, how does that fit in with what you see
[1300.9] in your world as you're going into dropping into
[1304.1] these different companies?
[1304.9] Cause we just talked about,
[1306.4] so God help before the six hour tide shift.
[1310.2] But with tech to your point, it changes so quickly.
[1314.2] So how does that land in your realm?
[1317.3] So it is in Maryam and I talk about this a lot where it's just like employee well being
[1324.0] isn't really a trend right now.
[1326.2] It's not the fad, but it's very similar I think to be economy where sometimes we're in
[1333.6] an upswing and then other times we're headed towards a recession.
[1337.0] And it depends on the current conditions in this case of the job market where we might see
[1344.3] swing in the other direction. And it's really just about waiting for the right time to kind of like
[1349.6] jump back in. It's kind of like doing double-dutch. And once you find that swing, you can
[1354.7] hop back in, but not getting discouraged by as Marion was saying, like the fact that this isn't
[1361.5] a priority right now, because the world is so complicated. And how we run businesses, how we
[1370.5] We see the economy and everything that's happening right now in the United States is just
[1376.9] my pay attention and nothing.
[1379.3] That's right.
[1380.3] Yeah, it's so can feel like we're drowning.
[1383.1] But the tie is going to come back and you just got to be ready to make that sprint when
[1389.0] you have your opportunity to go for it.
[1391.8] So that recharge strategy a lot of times is going to be your biggest friend of how I
[1397.8] preserve my energy so that one my opportunity comes available that I'm ready to just sprint
[1404.3] and make it happen.
[1405.3] So, you know, in those times of crisis and uncertainty, how do people think leaders can communicate
[1411.4] with integrity, whether it be to a team or stakeholders even to themselves, even when I just,
[1418.3] you know, everyone wants transparency, somebody that various stakeholders within a company,
[1423.4] multi-generational and now we're multi-national companies.
[1426.9] I mean, how to your point, it is so complicated.
[1430.5] And sometimes, is it better not to respond at all?
[1434.2] No. Okay. I don't see any scenario where it's better not to respond,
[1439.0] because if you are not informing your employees, your customers,
[1445.0] about what is happening, if you're not addressing it,
[1448.2] then that means you're leaving an idle mind to make up stories.
[1453.2] and you want to control narrative.
[1457.4] And by addressing, even if you don't know the answer,
[1461.0] if you're not sure, it is okay to say that.
[1463.8] I think there's probably more of an issue
[1465.8] around being vulnerable with your employees or your customers
[1470.3] that this is just an uncertain time.
[1472.1] We're not really sure.
[1473.1] Well, as soon as we know something,
[1475.4] we will tell you all.
[1476.9] But that way, you're not leaving them hanging.
[1481.0] and it gives your employees the sense that they're being treated
[1485.9] like adults, like they're being trusted.
[1488.0] Because you also see this common dynamic where employees
[1491.9] are almost treated like their children.
[1493.8] They're not mature enough to handle what's
[1496.0] happening at the company.
[1497.4] And so let's just not inform them.
[1499.3] And then the stress that goes up from that.
[1503.3] Need to know.
[1503.8] Mary, how about you?
[1504.9] I actually agree with Candice on this.
[1506.9] There's a regular cadence of communication.
[1509.0] always I think over communicating is always better than not communicating at all.
[1513.8] You know, and I have to work with our clients on communication strategies.
[1517.8] Just a little being programs, but I think to me having a regular cadence of communication that goes
[1524.1] out is important. And even if that communication is nothing has changed, we're still in the same
[1528.5] place or we still don't know. This is, you know, this is what it is and this is what we're thinking.
[1534.1] Any kind of communication is better than leaving an idle mind to wander.
[1537.9] So, and obviously this is all about just speaking the truth, what is, and obviously in building trust,
[1545.0] why do we have still to this state such a hard time doing that? I mean, I don't understand, I guess,
[1552.2] because are people afraid of looking weak or we're not going to get political, but in terms of people
[1559.5] not wanting to looking the other way or not wanting to be look as though they don't know or they're
[1565.6] not in the now.
[1566.6] Wait, because it seems like such, um, it's cause we're dealing with humans.
[1571.0] It seems like from the outside, such a kind of a duh, you know, if you tell people the truth,
[1576.3] they may not always like it, but at least they know where they can move forward from.
[1580.4] Why do some leaders still to this day have an issue with that?
[1584.5] Do you think I would first of all kind of like say, I think this is partly due to how male
[1592.2] dominated leader. Yeah, look at me. Like there is a need to have this more authoritarian
[1601.9] presence. And that's tolerated if you are a man versus women where we are, I think, far
[1611.1] more into communicating with what is happening and be that compassionate leader. Again,
[1617.8] This is just a general relation across the board.
[1620.9] And then I also think you're seeing this difference
[1623.6] with the generations that are transitioning in leadership
[1627.6] where boomers and maybe a little bit of gen X are,
[1632.6] again, more of that mindset of we don't talk about
[1636.2] what's happening behind the scenes.
[1638.0] They don't need to know, they don't want to know.
[1640.6] And if they know they can't handle it,
[1642.8] or they'll be in mutiny, or whatever,
[1645.1] the consequences just blow out of proportion.
[1648.5] Whereas now we're getting closer to millennial and Gen Z
[1652.3] leadership.
[1653.4] And that I think you'll see a bigger change
[1656.6] as the ranks change.
[1659.3] Yeah, I guess to the point of gender difference
[1663.4] in terms of power or leadership, it's also one of the reasons
[1667.8] why I would love to see.
[1671.2] And it seems to me that AI would be a really actually
[1674.4] a natural partner for women because it's really,
[1678.8] we have this opportunity to make it a collaborative
[1681.8] relationship.
[1682.9] And yes, men are good at collaborating.
[1685.6] What instinctively women are.
[1687.6] Or so that's what we do.
[1688.8] It's how we have to.
[1690.2] It's how we roll.
[1691.0] Exactly. It's how we get stuff done.
[1692.8] And I think there's such an opportunity
[1695.9] for women to get more involved in yet the numbers
[1699.3] are somewhat abysmal.
[1701.0] And so everyone listening, get going.
[1704.0] hop in, seriously, because this is a terrific opportunity for us.
[1709.4] I think to really help shape this next generation of company culture, of tech usage, of all sorts of things.
[1718.9] Yeah.
[1719.6] I will say too, like, as I have a one and a half year old son and a new part of learning
[1726.4] about what it's like to be a woman in the workforce has really come to life.
[1729.9] me and I granted I knew this before. It worked in benefits and so really understand, but
[1734.4] the environment for women to be supported in joining company leadership is not where
[1742.2] it needs to be. There is now that the support for remote work is just continuing to go
[1748.9] down and down and down and it is driving women away from the workforce. That would be amazing
[1754.2] and so that for me has been kind of a big learning,
[1759.7] especially with having my own child.
[1762.5] Right.
[1763.4] I guess what we'll just have to do is utilize AI,
[1766.0] build companies, and then go from there.
[1768.5] Send it up and change it that way, right?
[1771.0] Sort of turn the tables on everybody.
[1774.4] What do each of you do?
[1776.6] Like for your source, when you're feeling kind of burnt out
[1779.9] or a little drained, what do you turn to?
[1784.2] to reignite, refuel.
[1787.5] And what gives you hope?
[1789.2] I'm gonna go where you are.
[1790.3] Yeah, I will say, and I hope I don't piss anyone off,
[1793.9] but like I don't get burned out.
[1795.7] I hope I stop.
[1798.1] And I will tell you why,
[1799.3] because I plan my breaks in advance.
[1802.4] I don't wait to get burned out to take a break.
[1805.7] And another thing I've learned from marathon training
[1808.1] is, you know, I swim hard for five weeks,
[1810.4] and then I have a week of rest, and I have to.
[1812.6] I have to give my body and my muscles that time to recoup and rebuild.
[1817.6] And, you know, when I actually I picked up from marathon training that our brains are the same,
[1822.4] the way that I work is the same.
[1824.1] And I think I've done this intuitively just have always taken some breaks, but I'm more
[1828.0] scheduled about it.
[1829.6] And so every four to six weeks, I'll either have a weekend or a time off, you know, and
[1834.1] I have regular breaks throughout the week as well.
[1836.5] But it's kind of embedded in my work schedule where I don't get to that point.
[1841.3] to say that I don't have stressful days or stressful moments, but I don't get to the point of like
[1846.0] breaking, you know, like I don't ever want to do this again. And so, you know, I kind of, I do maintain
[1851.4] that hope. I do maintain sort of that sense of level headiness for duration. And I think it's
[1858.6] because I schedule an advance. And just how about you, especially with a little one and a half year old.
[1864.1] but my key has always been to basically diversify my identity as much as I can.
[1872.9] I am very passionate about what I do. I have a PhD in it. And so you have to be passionate
[1878.1] of you getting a doctor and something. But at the same point, passion can be a double-edged sword.
[1884.1] And I was learning over my corporate career that I was just living and braiding it all the time.
[1891.6] and I never set it down because I loved it so much.
[1894.9] And but at the same point, it was hurting me.
[1897.4] And so now, I mean, I have a child.
[1901.5] So that forces me to be in my mom role.
[1906.3] I love to, I'm learning a language right now, so I spend time on that.
[1911.7] Like, and I lean into my other passions, which are like music.
[1916.0] So really just diversifying your identity,
[1920.7] like you diversify a financial portfolio,
[1924.1] is like a super big key for me.
[1927.8] And I know so, and along those lines,
[1931.1] I know one of the things that I believe
[1933.3] you're working on together, right,
[1934.8] is burnout retreat.
[1936.8] Exactly.
[1937.7] Yes, yes.
[1938.7] Not a little bit about that,
[1939.8] because I think that's a great, I could use a little.
[1942.9] Yeah, a little while ago, Candice reached out to me.
[1947.7] So Candice and I met when she was working at Twitter.
[1950.5] You know, we were sort of the vendor that she reached out to for
[1954.4] Office yoga and meditation and practices.
[1957.0] And we grew very close in that working environment.
[1960.1] We both went through a lot of obstacles together.
[1962.7] I think it was maybe July of 2018 or 2019,
[1966.9] something like that.
[1967.5] It took six months to kind of get the program up and running.
[1970.4] And three weeks of it going the pandemic happened.
[1973.8] Oh, draw that work here.
[1976.3] We just have one thing after another, kind of come our way.
[1979.1] But together, we actually navigated that, I think, very well.
[1982.5] And we grew to really just appreciate each other's
[1985.0] strengths.
[1986.0] And especially time went on.
[1988.5] And we sort of moved on from Twitter.
[1991.0] And reached out to reach out to reach out
[1992.7] and said, hey, I have this idea of a burnout retreat.
[1994.6] And I think you knew I had led some retreats.
[1996.9] And so I just thought she wanted my advice on how
[1999.3] to get it going. And I was like, sure, these are the things you should go. And she's like,
[2003.5] then do you want to go lead one with me? And I was like, oh, no, I was like, flatter. And I was like,
[2009.2] really? That's awesome. Yeah. I can't just speak a little bit more to the content, but it'll be
[2015.2] an in Austin, April of next year or sorry. Marvel Falls. Yeah. Marvel Falls, Texas, it's a
[2022.4] great place in the Hill Country. Just right outside Austin. And it's at the retreat ranch,
[2028.2] which has great set of horses, outdoors, big sky, and there'll be Texas Blue Bonnards,
[2035.0] if you've ever seen Texas Blue Bonnards, they are peaking that time of year, they're gorgeous flower.
[2040.6] And really, this is about a combination of helping our participants get centered, take that
[2048.7] pause away from their lives, and really kind of figure out what is going to be the action plan
[2056.1] going back into the real world because like vacations, we wait for that time and then as soon as we get
[2063.1] back, the same problems are still there. So instead of taking just the vacation, which we're going to
[2069.6] have plenty of downtime and rest time and playing with horses, things like that, we also want to make
[2075.2] sure that we have a strategy coming back into our lives so that we don't repeat the cycle of
[2082.2] burnout again and again and again. So our retreat will be week long and we're just so excited about
[2091.3] the different activities and the location and really the people that we're going to meet
[2098.1] on this retreat. That's wonderful and I'll be including information everyone who's listening
[2103.2] on where you can find information about that we'll be giving we'll be setting out links on that.
[2107.9] So with all of this, what is surprise you most about yourselves on this journey? Like, what
[2115.5] have you learned about yourself? What's a prize you're most about yourself? Miriam, you
[2120.0] want to go? Yeah, I think honestly that I still have the capacity to keep going. You know,
[2129.4] there's a while where it's like I thought being a business owner, like you get it up
[2134.9] and going and then what's going, you kick your feet up and your cruise in a long and it's,
[2139.0] it is not that. It is reinventing yourself and your business every, originally every four years,
[2146.1] now it feels like every other year is probably a bit more often with the evolution of technology.
[2150.9] But you know, I just, I feel like I always find a way and it's the adaptability. It's that
[2157.1] grit, you know, it's that resilience. It's really that passion for that long term goal. Like, I do
[2162.5] think, especially as hopefully women and just new generation of leaders come through, we really think
[2168.6] differently about business and how we operate. And I want to be a part of that. I want to be
[2172.9] here for that. Yeah. Yeah. You will be clearly. And Candace, how about you? For me, I remember at the
[2179.6] beginning of my career, especially when I was even just like trying to choose a major graduate school,
[2186.1] like I felt very much that if I didn't choose the right thing, then my path would be permanent
[2194.4] and I couldn't undo it. And what I'm finding is that the more open I am to trying new things
[2200.6] and meeting new people and pushing myself, like it opens more pathways and you can have an amazing
[2208.7] career without necessarily saying, if I follow this recipe and I do this thing, then everything
[2217.6] will be great.
[2218.6] Like, I don't really have career goals.
[2221.1] I just, I want to have a good time.
[2223.9] And so I'm like, Mariam, let's go do this treat.
[2226.8] Like sounds like fun.
[2228.2] Right?
[2229.2] It's like, let's do a real work on this.
[2230.2] We got it.
[2231.2] We got it.
[2232.2] Yeah.
[2233.2] Just that's awesome.
[2235.3] Well, I think one thing, too, is each of you has such a sense of intentionality.
[2242.6] And I'm looking at, you know, Miriam, I know Zass is a B-core, which is no small feat.
[2249.3] No, that's face-set.
[2251.7] And Candice, do you see, I mean, I'd love to, like, how is that enhanced your business
[2257.3] and sort of brand-halo effect of being a B-core?
[2261.7] And then, Canvas, how do you see those types of designations impacting workplace culture?
[2267.8] Does it?
[2268.8] And I asked that because we know younger generations have all said.
[2272.0] And frankly, older generations wanted it too.
[2274.5] We just didn't talk about it.
[2276.2] Younger generationly says that Olmquist is sitting there and saying, I want to work with an
[2280.8] entity that is purpose driven, has values actually watch the talk.
[2286.2] And that's probably why they're so discouraged is so few do.
[2290.9] But be corp.
[2292.7] Yay.
[2293.7] Impactful.
[2294.7] Effective.
[2295.7] What do we think?
[2296.7] You know, my experience of being a be corp.
[2298.6] I think the biggest value I have and embodying the policies that we have to put in place.
[2305.4] What I really found is that my retention of the people and the clients that I have is so
[2310.5] strong.
[2311.7] know, I have people that come back and or just don't ever leave. And I think that's
[2316.8] really undervalued in a lot of bigger organizations. They think they view people or just
[2322.1] as resources or a dispense. You know, and for me, it's that not only the people that work
[2327.4] for me, they're so happy to be there that they bring in clients and the clients are so
[2331.3] happy to be with us because the people that work with us are so happy to be here. And so
[2335.7] it's just a cyclical effect that continues to evolve the business on very little resources
[2341.5] to be honest. You know, it didn't take much. It's just creating that healthy environment, that
[2346.1] clean water for the fish to swim in. It really creates this dynamic that it's enticing. It's
[2351.8] engaging. Like people want to be around that. And I think that's really the future of businesses.
[2356.7] We want to start working with people and companies that have that, they're intentional. They have
[2361.6] that just the way that they think and act and behave is in unit, is in unity.
[2366.9] And there's that positivity and let's just face it, you know, positive energy.
[2372.0] It's infectious.
[2373.0] And a really good way.
[2375.2] You want that.
[2376.2] You want to be around that.
[2377.5] Yeah.
[2378.5] Candice, what do you see?
[2379.5] Though 100% agree with what Maryam said.
[2384.5] I think especially this generation, but what we've seen in psychological research with
[2391.0] burnout is that when there's a mismatch between your values and the company's values,
[2397.5] it doesn't last as long. And I've asked a lot of different workshop participants,
[2403.1] how many of you have worked for a place where you feel like you sold your soul?
[2406.9] And almost everybody, right? And then I say, how long did you last? And for some people, it was
[2414.6] like a month, three months, where I've even heard somebody say like 15 years and I'm like,
[2419.9] Wow, that's that's a long time, but it's becoming our view on work is that we should not be
[2427.8] working, living to work. It should be working to live and embracing that comes with me.
[2435.7] Like, I'm not going to make it so much money, but I worked for a place that I like,
[2440.3] I agree with and I can sleep at night. So that I think is a strong transition we're going to see
[2447.1] with the next generations. Yeah. I liken it to, well, one being, you know, we talk about imposters
[2453.9] and don't, but then you feel like an impostor because it's hard to live fake lives.
[2458.2] And second, I just, to me, I liken it to, um, halfheartedness and doing, I think halfheartedly,
[2465.9] that is just such a drain on you. One of the hardest things. And there's, in the end, that is exactly
[2473.9] what, you know, selling your soul feels like. And it's giving up. It's actually not respecting you
[2479.9] yourself. Yeah. Yeah. And you're seeing it even too now with, you know, boycotts of certain companies
[2487.5] for their values or the withdrawal of those values sometimes is because it's like, I care about where
[2493.9] I put my money. And I'm not going to give my money to a company that doesn't value its employees,
[2499.4] doesn't value certain policies or doesn't do what they say they're going to do. And so,
[2505.1] again, with this, with newer generations, I think you're going to see more accountability for that.
[2510.8] Yeah. Now, I definitely think that's true. It's interesting too. I have a daughter who's 30,
[2516.6] and it's always fascinating when we have conversations because I'll say,
[2520.4] A, state mentioned say, see, that's the thing. Well, that's just not really a thing. It's
[2524.1] something you all just sort of held onto. But does it really matter to you? It doesn't,
[2528.2] if it doesn't, get rid of it.
[2530.4] And she's right.
[2533.0] It's like, yeah, you're right.
[2534.0] I don't even know where that came from.
[2535.9] So, well, then that's kind of a nice lead into.
[2539.2] My next question is if each of you
[2541.4] could give one piece of advice to women leaders,
[2544.7] wherever you are, are,
[2547.1] are coming up behind you, what would it be?
[2550.5] I would say be willing to start before you're ready.
[2554.1] Yeah.
[2554.9] I'll just be with, you will never feel 100% ready to take on the endeavor of starting your own
[2561.9] business or stepping in that leadership role.
[2565.0] And if you need an affirmation or a mantra as I am willing to start before I am ready,
[2571.1] trust me, it will fall into place, but that action and momentum of just getting started
[2575.6] will create the opportunities and the things that you need to fall into place.
[2580.7] That's your perfect conditions.
[2582.6] You're never going to have perfect water.
[2584.6] Yeah, I mean, that fits into the imposter syndrome of really just like I need.
[2590.8] I used to think that we too.
[2592.0] It's like, well, I need a degree in this in order to, you know, talk about it or to do
[2596.5] it.
[2597.5] And it's like, you don't like you have to be willing to learn as you go.
[2601.5] And that's okay.
[2602.5] So, but I think for women we have a tendency to kind of like feel like we need to be competent
[2608.3] in some way to have some kind of validating form.
[2611.7] So I think that's great advice.
[2614.1] The other thing I would just say is like,
[2616.3] do not be afraid to reach out to other women
[2619.2] and ask for advice, like mentorship,
[2623.5] because it's just so, so impactful.
[2626.5] It's been impactful for me.
[2627.7] And I know it's been impactful for the people
[2629.6] that I've mentored.
[2630.9] And just to like give a shout out,
[2633.5] I recently joined the Society of Working Moms.
[2636.7] And we just have like a slide group
[2638.6] where we have like one channel
[2641.3] that's just screaming into a void.
[2643.5] Like, and we get our own frustrations validated.
[2647.3] Like, having community, especially if you are an entrepreneur
[2651.9] and you really don't have a lot of co-workers,
[2655.3] is so, so important to feeling like you can continue moving forward.
[2661.3] Do this.
[2662.4] No, absolutely.
[2664.6] Well, so now, knowing what you know,
[2667.1] what advice would you each give your younger selves?
[2670.8] give advice to the others. Now it's time to get what would you have said to yourself?
[2675.9] I mean, for me, I just sort of been like, you know, stop worrying so much about the future.
[2683.3] Like you're never going to have this part of your career back.
[2689.1] And each each moment is a gift. It's just sometimes hard to see it, especially if you're
[2694.7] learning something new and feeling frustrated. But everything you can take with you.
[2700.8] So how do you want to put that in your backpack so that you can bring it along with you for that knowledge?
[2709.4] So because I think I was overly concerned about, again, that right path, like, at the beginning point, there's no right or wrong way.
[2718.0] And if you're going to be a pioneer, you're going to create that way.
[2721.1] Yes.
[2722.0] Exactly.
[2723.0] And a lot of times, especially these days, now we're, I really think because of the times we find ourselves in.
[2730.3] and the sands ever shifting were completely and uncharted territory.
[2735.7] I'm trying to explain this to my daughters and saying,
[2738.4] you know, I'm just realizing I'll be able to, you know, share some pearls,
[2742.3] but take it what part works and it may not because honestly,
[2747.3] never been through this part before.
[2749.1] So I'll go into it together.
[2751.3] And that's to me, the reciprocity too of mentorship and sponsorship is,
[2758.5] Hey, we're all learning.
[2760.5] Yeah, and Miriam, how about you?
[2762.4] Along the same lines, I would probably tell myself,
[2766.8] you know, if it's not working let it go,
[2768.9] you know, I think there's times where I would hold on to something too long,
[2772.7] even though maybe I just needed to let it go and sort of move along and evolve.
[2777.7] And I think I've had much better at that.
[2779.4] So I don't, I'm a little bit more, I let it, I let it just naturally
[2785.0] come to it.
[2785.9] I hold things lightly. I'll say that. I'll hold things lightly. I appreciate it when it's going well
[2790.5] and if it's not, you know, I don't I don't mind letting it go. I trust in my creativity a little bit
[2796.4] more knowing that I can meet the market where it's at. If anything, I'm usually ahead of it.
[2801.7] So I just trust that process a little bit more.
[2803.9] Do you think there is like, because I hear you on that. Do you think there is what we hold on?
[2808.5] So tight? Is it because we're stubborn? Maybe. Again, I'm going to talk about psychological
[2815.0] research so. No, I think so. We have a series of biases and one of those biases is actually
[2823.2] the some cost fallacy. So the more time you put into something, the more you're willing to keep
[2829.3] putting time into it to make sure that it works, even though it would be best if you just cut
[2834.9] your losses and say, not every idea is going to work. That's okay. Right. So like the same thing
[2841.1] with a jackpot machine is like, I'm going to keep putting money in it. It's going to eventually
[2844.8] pay out right right right so true yeah I think maybe some of it too can be a familiarity you know if
[2851.6] you just know something so well the idea of trying something new for some is very hard you know to
[2857.3] have to recreate and reinvent yourself you know and to say that to go back to what you were saying
[2861.8] Kate about being in sort of unprecedented times like we were saying the same thing four years ago five
[2866.2] years ago to pandemic we're like we've never been to this before this is uncharted territory you know
[2870.9] Now here we are again, we're like, we've never been.
[2872.9] We're throwing.
[2873.9] You're throwing.
[2874.9] I don't know how to get it that.
[2876.8] This is the same thing, but different, you know,
[2878.7] so we'll get through this too.
[2880.6] I guess what?
[2881.4] There's gonna be another uncharted story.
[2883.6] Get it all away before you know it.
[2886.5] It's the age all changes the only constant.
[2889.5] And you know, yes, it is.
[2891.2] So embrace and light touch, light touch.
[2894.8] Well, Maryam and Candice, thank you so much.
[2898.1] I really enjoyed the conversation.
[2900.5] And I know people are gonna go straight and sign up
[2903.8] for the fabulous Bernat retreat.
[2906.3] I might be among them, I'm just not really glad I love you.
[2910.1] Yeah, I'm really appreciate the time and the intentionality
[2914.7] and the depth of conversation.
[2917.1] And so kudos to you and we're really lucky
[2919.4] that both of you are touching so many lives
[2921.2] as you are with what you do every day.
[2923.5] Thank you Kate.
[2924.4] It's an honor to be here and it's great to see you
[2925.9] as always.
[2927.3] like, well, thank you so much, Kate, for the space and the time.
[2930.8] My pleasure.
[2931.4] Till next time.
[2933.7] Wasn't that a great conversation?
[2935.9] I think Miriam and Candace shared a number of key points that can help all of us
[2942.7] counter burn out something.
[2944.2] Let's face it in these crazy conditions and times we're all facing and having to
[2948.2] tolerate because as we know, as the old adage goes, change is the only constant.
[2953.3] So with that in mind, I loved the first point that Mary and
[2957.5] had brought up that she took away as her open water long distance swimming self.
[2962.7] Having swimmed across the English channel around San Francisco Bay,
[2967.1] throughout Manhattan, and that is you're never going to have perfect conditions.
[2972.6] So if you are getting ready to start a company or thinking you might want to try
[2976.6] something new, do it.
[2978.6] It's never going to be perfect.
[2980.0] There's always going to be a little something else that could be tweaked.
[2982.9] But when the majority of those items, the line, go for it. Do it. And second, if something isn't working, let it go. This is something we all do. It's so much easier said than done. Why? Because literally you get drained.
[2998.4] And when you're working in a work environment as Candice shared where your values are not
[3004.2] those of the company, it's scary to do, but in the long run, rather than depleting yourself,
[3011.4] it's time to start looking for something new.
[3014.5] They're better fits out there because nothing is more draining than working half-hearted
[3018.4] for sure.
[3019.8] And finally, stop worrying about the future.
[3023.4] Focus on the now.
[3024.4] And I know this is another one that everybody says, but it really bears repeating.
[3028.0] it's so easy to future trip, especially these days again.
[3032.1] So try to stop, take a beat, focus where you are, right this minute.
[3037.4] And perhaps that's also a sign that you need to take a sec.
[3042.3] And even if it's a five minute little interspersed injection of just U-time throughout the
[3049.0] day, you'll be amazed at the impact that makes.
[3052.7] We can learn a lot more from both Miriam and Candice at their upcoming burnout retreat, which is going to take place in April, 2026 out in Texas, marblehead at the retreat center.
[3065.7] Lots of interesting and fascinating activities that will believe you permanently shifted.
[3073.7] So with that, thank you as always for listening.
[3076.7] Let me know what you thought.
[3078.2] Let me know what other subjects you'd like to cover.
[3080.7] And I'll see what I can do to find someone who can share what they're working on.
[3084.2] With that, thanks so much.
[3085.4] Really appreciate you until our next conversation.
[3088.0] Thanks for listening.
[3093.8] May this episode inspire you to move forward.
[3096.5] Be sure to go to iTunes, Spotify, Kburn.co, that's K-A-T-E-V-Y-R-N-E.co, or wherever you listen
[3108.3] to your podcasts.
[3109.3] and listen to even more episodes.
[3112.3] Here's the strong woman.
[3113.8] May we know them, may we be them,
[3116.0] may we raise them.
[3117.5] Be sure to meet them on the next women advancing.
[3120.4] Until next time.