[1.3] Are you looking for a trusted health insurance?
[4.0] Allianne covers you beyond borders.
[6.5] We deliver peace of mind just a click away, with global telehealth access and round the
[11.4] clock support.
[12.4] Backed by 2 million healthcare providers worldwide, we're trusted as the number one insurance
[17.2] brand for the last seven years.
[19.2] Visit Alliannescare.com and explore our Singapore plans to find out more.
[24.1] Terms and conditions apply.
[31.3] You're listening to everyone's talking money.
[33.7] to show that's all about making life richer.
[36.8] From your bank account to your mindset
[39.2] and everything in between.
[41.1] Whether you're here to crush debt, grow wealth,
[44.2] or finally feel in control of your cash,
[47.3] you are in the right place.
[49.6] Let's dive in and get you living life on your terms.
[53.4] You are one conversation closer to financial freedom.
[73.2] Have you ever looked around at your life, your job,
[76.5] your title, your bank account,
[78.7] and thought, I should feel successful.
[81.3] So why do I feel like I'm drowning?
[84.2] If that question hits a little too close to home,
[87.3] you are not alone.
[89.2] Today's guest, Amuna Altai,
[92.0] is here to crack open the truth about why so many,
[96.2] three, two, one.
[98.2] Today's guest, Amuna Altai,
[101.1] is here to crack open the truth
[102.8] about why so many ambitious women
[105.2] feel stuck in a loop of doing more
[107.9] and feeling less.
[109.9] She's an executive coach, a chronic illness advocate,
[113.6] and the author of the ambition trap.
[116.3] How to stop chasing and start living.
[119.5] A title that honestly says it all.
[122.8] We talk about why women are expected to be everything
[126.2] and nothing at the same time.
[128.2] How the culture of constant hustle is literally making us sick.
[133.0] And what happens when we finally stop measuring our worth
[136.4] and how much we can juggle.
[138.5] This is not your standard productivity pep talk.
[141.6] It's a deep, honest, and affirming conversation
[145.0] about how to reclaim your energy, your brilliance,
[148.6] and your peace.
[149.8] Let's get into it.
[151.2] I'm gonna, your book, The Ambition Trap,
[154.1] hits at something so many women feel, but rarely name.
[159.3] This exhausting loop of too much and not enough.
[163.6] So where does that internal tug of war really begin?
[167.3] And how do we break it?
[169.8] Yes, in the ambition trap,
[171.3] what I wanted to talk about was not just the mindsets
[173.8] that we all have, but also the system that we operate in
[176.2] that reinforces a lot of these ideas.
[178.5] And so first and foremost, I thought it was really important
[180.9] that we redefine ambition because I actually don't think
[183.5] we have a great working definition for it.
[185.8] I think a lot of what we've culturally come to understand
[188.3] ambition as is sort of more for more sake all the time,
[191.3] but it leaves us depleted and it reinforces a lot of these toxic systems.
[195.6] And so I actually think ambition is neutral and natural, and it's for everybody,
[199.4] and it's simply a desire for growth, the desire for more life.
[202.8] And actually, ambition is much more like a perennial flower versus that more growth all the time.
[208.6] So it's like we have this seedling of desire that we want to grow and we drop it into the ground.
[213.5] And we nurture that inner and outer environment, and therefore we kind of rise,
[217.8] and we have this momentary beautiful peak in the sun, and then the seasons change,
[221.1] and the pedals fall off and we wind that down
[223.0] and go underground where we rest
[224.8] until we're ready to take aim again.
[226.7] And I felt like it was so important to redefine it
[229.1] and talk about it in these waves and these cycles
[232.0] because that more for more sake all the time
[233.9] causes us to try to outwork a system
[236.2] that wasn't necessarily designed for us to thrive
[238.3] and particularly for women,
[239.6] for people of color, for other historically excluded people,
[242.4] were often told to be and not to be at the very same.
[245.4] Yeah, it's hard because women always dance this fine line,
[251.1] of too much, not enough.
[253.7] You're assertive.
[255.1] If you're too assertive, you're the B word.
[256.8] If you're too strong, you're intimidating.
[259.4] There's always a fine line.
[261.7] There's a dance to it that we have to do.
[264.9] Why is that?
[265.9] And is some of that self-imposed?
[269.7] Yes.
[270.1] So some of it are mindsets that we've adopted, right?
[272.4] I can't take up too much space.
[273.9] If I take up too much space, I'm going to cause harm.
[276.1] So in the book, I'm very careful to kind of separate out
[278.7] these two tracks.
[279.5] there's always stuff that we need to look at on our side of the street where we're telling
[282.8] ourselves stories about what we can and can achieve and then also we're operating in a system
[286.6] that may reinforce that. So when I looked at the data what I saw was men and women enter the
[291.5] workforce with the same levels of ambition. Men are rewarded for their ambition for women,
[295.9] it's seen as a detractor, right? So we kind of tampars down a little bit.
[299.7] Embicious women that negotiate their salaries are seen as difficult and hard to work with.
[303.9] And women of color are actually the most ambitious cohort in the workplace and they
[309.1] experience the most resistance, the most micro-reshing, the most headwinds.
[314.0] And so we're seeing these really ambitious people not having a place to put their ambition,
[319.1] and that causes all sorts of friction for it.
[322.7] And what is some of that friction that we experience?
[327.4] Yeah.
[328.4] So this idea of being told to be a not to be at the very same time, right?
[332.1] Then sometimes we can decide and take it upon ourselves of, well, and I'm going to
[335.3] outwork the system, right?
[336.5] I'm going to be the first one in the last one out.
[338.7] I'm gonna try to get things perfect.
[340.8] And I think so much of that is what's led us to burn out, right?
[344.0] Depending on what studies you read,
[345.3] 70 or 80% of us are experiencing burnout right now.
[348.2] And I think especially for women
[349.6] and other historically excluded people, right?
[351.3] We're like, we've got all of this amazing things
[354.4] inside of ourselves,
[355.2] these things that we wanna contribute,
[356.8] but we're kind of taking a hit for it, right?
[359.2] And business women are told to kind of speak up
[361.4] and throw their hat in the ring.
[362.4] And then when we speak truth to power,
[363.8] we're told our stories aren't real,
[365.1] or people with disabilities inside of organizations
[367.8] may throw their hat in the ring, but then they don't get those basic accommodations.
[370.9] And then they try to either outwork, which will exacerbate illness, injury, and disability,
[375.3] or they'll underperform.
[376.3] Right?
[377.3] So it's kind of this catch 22 this false binary.
[379.9] And I think it's making a lot of a sick.
[381.7] And I think that's a big reason that so many of us are experiencing burnout right now, along
[385.4] with some other factors too.
[386.8] But I think it's a big piece.
[388.9] And I think that it's just the way society is, we're rewarded almost, or it's encouraged
[398.1] to do so much.
[400.4] Like, taking a nap.
[403.6] I feel guilty sometimes if I have to go rest my eyes for 30 minutes.
[407.1] I feel bad for that.
[408.6] If I have to do that in the middle of the day when studies have shown that's actually
[412.0] super healthy for you.
[414.1] And then you wake up and you're more productive as a result of it.
[417.5] know if you feel guilty for it and you're told to go go go or you know, you're superwoman,
[423.1] you can handle everything, you can do everything and then you're kind of rewarded or praised
[428.9] for that. And it's like, I'm killing myself over here. I'm dying. Like this is hard, but I think
[434.6] that we feel obligated to keep up with this working hard to be like, well, someone thinks I'm super
[441.0] woman. I need to keep doing this. So how do we break that? And how do we recognize? So because I feel
[446.6] like we don't realize that we're at that cusp of burning out until we're close to being burnt.
[452.8] Yeah, absolutely. And you're so right. We're rewarded for it. We're kind of seen as super
[457.4] women. It's seen as a superpower. There's that old adage that it's if you want something
[460.8] done, ask a busy woman, right? And you know, I was looking at the data on this too. And
[465.1] it's even people that are higher up on the economic ladder feel so much financial
[470.0] precarity right now that even they are overworking. So so many of us are overworking because
[474.8] we're rewarded for it, there's the financial reward or we're worried about the
[478.1] fallout if we don't overwork, right? So there's all these reasons that's leading
[481.9] us to do it. And I think that awareness is honestly 80% of it. And you know,
[487.2] what I'm working with my clients, one of the things I'll have them look at is how
[489.8] much visible labor are you doing? So that's the work that we do that's seen and
[493.2] paid for and then how much invisible labor are you doing? That's the work that we
[496.8] do that is unseen and unpaid for. And we do it at both work and at home. And so
[501.1] So just starting to notice how much you're over giving, how much you're overworking, and
[505.8] are there places that we could kind of pull that back, especially around the invisible
[509.1] labor piece because we're not being paid for it, right?
[511.7] And it's taking the toll on all of us.
[513.4] And so I think it's really important that we start to look at those different areas.
[517.8] And unfortunately, like you said, it's like a lot of us don't know that we're burnt out
[521.0] or we don't pause until we've taken a really big hit.
[524.4] And this is something I've been an executive coach for the last 10 years.
[527.3] I've had a front row seat to all of these high achievers.
[529.7] And I notice the same pattern.
[531.1] It's right, we get our lesson when we get our lesson
[533.2] and not a moment before.
[534.8] And some of us do need to take a big hit for it
[536.8] because we're not listening to the whispers.
[538.7] We're not listening to those little messages
[541.4] from our bodies that are saying slow down.
[543.1] We wait for that big, full stop moment,
[544.9] which was my story too.
[546.5] And so if we can kind of tune in to those quieter voices
[550.5] and hopefully get the lesson before something dramatic happens,
[553.1] right, like a health crisis, which was my case,
[556.0] Hopefully we can choose another way.
[557.6] But you know what's really interesting?
[559.8] I'm seeing a lot of Gen Z choose a different way.
[562.4] I think they're seeing Gen Xers and Millennials
[564.5] be really burnt out, not have too much to show for it,
[567.7] and they're deciding, you know,
[569.0] I want a little bit more work-life balance.
[570.6] And no generation is a monolith,
[572.7] but I do think that they have,
[574.7] they've gotten the benefit of having to learn from us.
[579.0] I feel like Gen Z in general is learning a lot
[581.5] from the Millennials and they're going in the opposite direction.
[585.8] As a millennial, I get some of it why, but why is that and what lessons are they learning
[591.8] from us?
[592.8] And they're like, nope, I'm not touching that in no way.
[595.1] Yeah.
[596.1] Well, I think so many of them are watching there.
[598.5] There are millennial colleagues get burned out and they said absolutely not.
[601.5] I did a training program at a Fortune 50 company and it was for rising VPs.
[608.8] And all of them were wrestling with this question.
[610.6] They kept saying, I don't know if I want to go to the next level.
[612.8] I'm watching the person that's above me
[614.8] and they have no work-life balance,
[616.8] a lot of them have been sick,
[618.5] and that just doesn't look exciting for me.
[620.8] That doesn't look like where I want to spend time.
[622.7] It doesn't look like it's gonna grow me
[623.9] in the ways that I want to.
[625.1] And so I think that they're just watching
[626.4] these generations ahead of them
[628.1] and they're deciding that they want a different life.
[630.6] And I also think that they're seeing
[632.5] I'm Elgern millennial too.
[633.8] And just even the difference between
[635.0] like us and baby boomers, right?
[636.5] Baby boomers were able to work really hard
[638.1] and I'm speaking generally now, right?
[640.0] Work really hard and they could have houses,
[641.5] they could pay off their student loans
[642.8] all the things that millennials and Gen Z can't do.
[645.8] And so I think they're like,
[646.7] what's the point of all this?
[649.3] Yeah, but it's interesting too,
[650.9] because millennials are painted at,
[653.0] we're painted as lazy, right?
[656.1] But now is it just because we've had enough time
[659.2] in the workforce or that we're showing that no,
[662.4] we're actually not, again, generally speaking.
[665.3] No, we're not that lazy.
[666.5] We're actually working ourselves to the bone,
[669.2] to the point of that it's hurting us health-wise
[672.0] and mentally?
[674.0] How did that shift happen?
[675.4] And why are millennials functioning this way?
[679.2] Is it because we went to college,
[682.7] we got the higher education,
[684.2] we feel like we need to use it now,
[686.0] or it was a waste, is that part of the pressure?
[689.1] That's a really interesting question.
[690.5] And so much of the conversation again,
[692.3] I'm an elder millennial, right?
[693.2] So much of the conversation around millennials
[694.8] was around entitlement.
[696.0] And I think a lot of it was around setting boundaries.
[698.2] The previous generations probably didn't have the ability
[701.1] just set in the workplace.
[702.7] And so, you know, my story is that I overworked so hard
[706.1] that I burned out and developed two auto-immune diseases
[708.2] and was days away from organ failure.
[709.9] So my story was not a lazy one
[711.6] and I doubt yours is too, right?
[714.0] So I think that, you know, some people probably got it wrong
[716.7] and I'm sure there are some millennials
[718.2] that just decide I don't wanna work
[719.6] and that's totally up to them, that's their prerogative, right?
[722.4] But Ann Helen Peterson wrote the book,
[724.6] the subtitle is how millennials became the burnout generation.
[727.0] I've forgotten the title.
[728.5] And essentially what she talks about
[730.1] is a lot of millennials graduated around the time
[732.5] of the great recession, which meant they graduated,
[734.8] and there were no jobs.
[735.8] And so a lot of them either went back to school
[737.5] or just really struggled to make ends meet.
[740.2] And so, coming of age at this time,
[743.0] and some other cultural factors too,
[745.0] they decided like, okay, financial precarity
[747.2] is such a big part of our reality.
[748.9] We're gonna work so hard
[750.0] that we don't have to experience that ever again.
[752.2] There was just so much uncertainty at that time.
[754.4] So I think you do see a large swath
[756.6] of the millennial population over working
[759.5] because they came of age in that really precarious moment.
[763.5] It's funny, I was in the financial services industry
[766.6] when 2008 happened and I think I was like,
[769.5] month three on my job.
[772.1] And I'm just watching it all,
[774.1] it's all just happening, like every,
[775.7] it's just happening every day.
[777.3] It just felt like, okay, well, this is just how it is, right?
[781.7] Like, people were freaking out, of course.
[784.4] But it was like, okay, well, this is just
[786.2] what I have in store for me for my life,
[789.4] if I'm gonna work in finance.
[791.4] And it just seemed normal, but it's like,
[794.4] okay, well also how do I protect myself from this,
[797.2] from happening?
[798.1] Cause I'm like, well this is what's just going to happen.
[800.4] Right, exactly.
[801.4] There's a line in your book that stopped me
[804.3] when I was reading.
[805.5] And it was the world benefits when women burned out.
[810.5] Can you unpack this for us?
[814.4] The world benefits from so much of women's labor, right?
[817.6] And so if we're telling ourselves a story that we can't rest,
[820.7] that we can't pause, that we can't take a beat,
[822.6] we're gonna stay in that momentum.
[824.4] And I think the world absolutely benefits
[826.4] from us staying in that momentum.
[827.7] So it's what I was talking about before.
[829.0] We're doing so much both visible labor and invisible labor.
[832.6] And if we pause for a moment and say,
[834.3] I don't wanna do that visible or invisible labor,
[836.6] there's gonna be a big drop in terms of production, right?
[839.2] So I think the world really does benefit from us doing
[841.8] so much and carrying so much on our backs.
[844.2] And so I think that we really have to be right
[846.4] conversation around women and money, around women and work, around women and
[849.5] ambition, which is what I was setting out to do with this book. What's some of
[853.9] the invisible labor that we do that we don't even realize we might be doing
[857.3] or that it's bogging us down? Yes. In a work context it could look like volunteering
[862.0] to be the office therapist. That was very much my role too. I was like, yes I'm your
[865.6] manager and the door is open and let's talk about your divorce. Let's talk about
[868.8] what's happening at home. I've got time for you and then guess what? I didn't get
[872.3] to do my own work until 6pm and then I'm there till midnight because I spent all
[876.2] day being the office therapist. So that's one example. We see a lot of people volunteer to
[881.4] be the office secretary too, right? So I'll take notes and I'll make sure that we know everybody's
[885.7] birthdays and that we're organizing all of these events. Even things that are wonderful and
[890.6] really supportive to a work culture like volunteering to be the head of an ERG, right? Which can be
[896.6] really helpful to have these employee resource groups. But that's additional work that you're doing
[900.6] that isn't paid for. And when we do too much of that, we can tip into burnout. At home, it looks
[906.0] like organizing the child care, knowing everything about the doctors, connecting with the teachers,
[912.5] doing the back to school nights, the parents' evenings, elder care, right? All the things that we do
[918.1] that is unseen and unpaid, where there is such an emotional burden and mental burden to be
[923.2] carrying around all the time. We're recording this in the beginning of June and we just went through
[929.8] a period of time called May-sember. And it is the craziest time of year because school is ending,
[938.2] there's performances and recitals and presents and more presents and cards and thank, and there's
[945.4] so many things. It feels just like the holiday season, both out cookies and all of them have fun to
[951.5] stop. And every May and every December I say the same things. Like I need someone to just follow
[959.1] me around and help me with all of this stuff. And then come June or January, I no longer need that.
[965.7] But that just shows like that just shows all the extra stuff that that you do. And you don't
[971.5] realize it till it's like all piled up on top of you. Right. And like, do you get a break after
[976.6] that? Or do you have to keep going? Most parents have to keep going, right? Keep going, right?
[980.4] Absolutely. Because now we're in summer camp season. The next thing and the next thing, and this is
[985.3] why we have so much burnout, right?
[987.2] Because there are no places for you to pause.
[989.4] And we don't have the same community that we used to have, right?
[993.0] And so a lot of community care could kind of step in and help us with that, right?
[996.5] Help with the child care.
[997.6] Maybe there's a meal train, all of those things.
[999.4] We don't have as much of that these days.
[1001.5] And so the onus and the burden is on the individual, which is just too heavy.
[1005.2] So in your coaching work, what limiting beliefs show up most often for women
[1010.3] who quote unquote have it all on paper, but they still feel
[1014.1] stuck small or unseen.
[1016.5] Yeah, I really, I love this question so much.
[1019.5] A lot of limiting beliefs about what's possible for us, right?
[1022.5] A lot of the times they'll give it away to luck.
[1024.6] You know, I'll coach everybody from Fortune 100 leaders
[1027.6] to VC back founders to Olympians
[1029.5] and they have these amazing track records
[1031.4] and I'll reflect that back to them.
[1032.5] And they're like, you know, that was a fluke.
[1034.0] That just happens by luck.
[1035.7] And I, you know, I don't love the L word
[1037.9] because I see them working so hard.
[1040.9] I heard somebody say once that the more we show up
[1043.7] show up well we increase our surface area for luck and I love that way of thinking about it,
[1047.7] right? When you show up in excellence you increase your surface area for luck. So is it really luck
[1051.6] or are you magical and are you excellent and are you always dotting every eye and crossing every
[1056.0] T? So that part is always really interesting to me that you know they're like it was luck. And then
[1061.0] the other piece is you know they will so readily throw away their zone of genius. So each and
[1066.1] every one of us has a zone of genius and I talk about this in the book too because when we build our
[1070.8] careers around our zone of genius. It's a much more generative place to build from and the
[1074.7] impact that we can have is just even far more reaching. And when I'll sit with these amazing
[1080.1] humans and we'll talk about their zone of genius and what will come across something they'll say
[1083.8] inevitably, well, doesn't everybody have that gift? Can everybody do that thing? And it's like,
[1088.2] no, that's really magical that you can do that. Not everybody's built that way. And so when I was
[1093.4] researching for the book, I was like, why does so many women readily throw away their genius? Why
[1097.3] Are they so quick to say I don't have any gifts?
[1099.9] And I traced it all the way back to ancient Rome,
[1102.4] and genius is almost always a hero and never a heroine.
[1106.2] And there was a study that was done by the 92nd Street Y,
[1108.8] and they found that even women,
[1110.5] like something like 90% of women report
[1112.3] genius as a male trait, not a female trait.
[1114.5] And even girls as young as six think that genius
[1117.2] is a male trait and not a female trait.
[1118.7] So so many of us are just ready to throw it away and discounted,
[1121.4] but each and every one of us has a zone of genius
[1123.5] and something to contribute.
[1125.7] So when you're sitting down and you're saying to someone like, no, that's amazing.
[1129.8] And that is your zone of genius.
[1131.5] Well, no, no, no, no.
[1133.2] How can you make sure that they actually believe it?
[1136.1] Because it could be like, yeah, okay, thank you.
[1138.2] And move on.
[1139.2] But what needs to be said or what need to hit them over the head to make sure that they
[1144.2] really understand it and actually do believe that.
[1146.9] Yeah.
[1147.9] And that's a process, right?
[1148.9] Because what you're saying is like, how do we feel embodied around it so that we know
[1151.6] and every cell of our body versus just knowing it intellectually in our heads.
[1155.9] And I think that takes time, but in exercise that I'll do with clients is I'll be like,
[1159.8] okay, jot down three to five stories over the last year where something went really well,
[1165.0] where you knocked something out of the park. Now tell me about what your zone of genius contributed
[1168.6] to that. And then they'll start to see, okay, actually, when I show up in this thing, magic does
[1174.2] happen. And then we'll kind of scenario plan and we'll say, well, if you didn't contribute that zone
[1178.6] of genius, how might that situation have played out and they can start to see their contribution
[1182.7] in it. But it is really hard. And then when you start to see those patterns, then I'll ask them to
[1187.3] look forward. Right? So we've seen it in the past. Now I want you to notice moment to moment
[1191.6] when you're contributing it, contributing that thing. So you can start to see it in real life and kind
[1196.4] of attune your nervous system to it. So it feels like, yeah, that's amazing. And I'm allowed to
[1200.8] have it. And it really does shift things. So as you mentioned before, you worked with top executives
[1207.4] Google, Deloitte, and I imagine even they struggle with these issues, right?
[1213.3] With the ambition especially especially yeah. So they struggle with the
[1219.7] ambition penalty or the exhausting loop of too much and not enough. But what
[1225.4] have you noticed that high-achieving women consistently get wrong about ambition?
[1231.2] Yeah I think a lot of the times what I'm noticing with high-achieving women
[1235.8] and their ambition is they think it has to be that like hard-charging way and it has to be that
[1241.2] more for more sake all the time that we're talking about at the top of the conversation. So just
[1245.2] to kind of, I alluded to this before but to share a little bit more in my late 20s, I worked in
[1250.1] marketing and brand management and I was working so hard. I was the first one in the last one out,
[1254.4] the 70, 80 hour weeks putting everybody ahead of myself. And this is a story that so many people
[1259.3] have the same one. And then I burned out and I developed two autoimmune diseases and you know went to
[1264.5] a bunch of different doctors and then I got a call one Friday where my doctor said,
[1267.8] if you don't go to the hospital now instead of going to work, you'll be days away from
[1271.2] multiple organ failure. And so I had been working so hard. I'd gotten so sick, I had
[1276.5] put two choices to keep going the way that I was going or to exit the planet.
[1280.4] I'm assuming you went to the hospital that Friday when your doctor called you, right?
[1285.4] It's honestly kind of wild. And I think this tells you a lot of my mindset is I went
[1288.7] to work. And then after working the day I was like, oh, maybe, you know, it took a minute
[1293.8] to kind of land in my body that something was really wrong and then at the end of the day is when I went.
[1298.8] Where are you still checking emails in the hospital bed?
[1303.4] You know, it's a great question. I don't remember that part. All I remember is that like I did not get my butt
[1308.5] to the hospital until the end of the day and like when people hear that they're like,
[1312.4] wow, you must have been in greater state, right? Yeah. Kind of talking. I'm sure on some level
[1318.9] I was checking right emails while I was there. I don't think I even really believed the
[1323.0] diagnosis until a little while after.
[1327.0] And what did, was there a change immediately after or did it take time to accept of this
[1335.5] is really what I was doing to myself and this is why?
[1339.8] I think it's a both end.
[1340.8] There were things that I put in place immediately and then there were things that really
[1345.1] took a lot of time.
[1346.1] Like, you know, to this day, it's, you know, take something out of me to assert a really
[1350.2] firm boundary, right?
[1351.6] I'm like, I just want everyone to be happy and to get what they need.
[1354.0] And so, you know, recovering codependent over here.
[1356.7] So there's things that kind of, you know, shifted quite quickly and things
[1359.5] that really took time.
[1360.3] But, you know, at the time, you know, after came home from the hospital,
[1364.2] I was talking to my roommate at the time and she was like, oh, one of my
[1366.5] friends just did this life coaching program.
[1368.5] And I just knew that was the thing I needed to do.
[1370.9] So I went to life coaching and they taught me all about boundaries and they
[1373.5] taught me all about the areas in my life where I was making myself a victim
[1376.5] and not serving myself.
[1378.1] And it was so helpful to see.
[1379.7] And so after that weekend, I really did change a lot of things and it actually set me on the course of becoming a coach where I could teach others so that they wouldn't have to have the rock bottom that I had.
[1389.6] And so yeah, something was a really taken time and some things were quite, quite quick.
[1416.0] insurance brand for the last seven years.
[1418.3] Visit alleonscare.com and explore our Singapore plans
[1421.8] to find out more.
[1423.0] Terms and conditions apply.
[1432.0] Almanac, we're going to now move into our money
[1434.7] confessions segment where I ask you some real deal questions.
[1438.1] And you just answer them as openly and as honestly
[1441.4] as you can.
[1442.0] If money showed up at your front door, what would you say
[1444.9] to it?
[1446.0] Thank you.
[1446.5] I love you.
[1447.2] Come sit with me.
[1448.1] When was the last time you impulse bought something?
[1451.2] and it actually turned out great.
[1453.3] Oh, I love this.
[1455.4] Well, okay, this morning I was supposed to meet a friend
[1457.6] for breakfast and I'm traveling from my book tour
[1459.5] and I was feeling a little tired.
[1461.0] So I was like, instead of breakfast,
[1462.4] because could we go get vitamin IVs?
[1464.8] And she was like, yeah, that sounds great.
[1466.3] So we got vitamin IVs and when I was there,
[1468.4] I impulse purchased those recovery boots
[1471.5] that do the lymphatic drainage on your legs.
[1474.9] I didn't buy the boots, but I added that service on.
[1477.0] And it felt like a great return on investment
[1478.9] because I felt way energized after.
[1481.8] That's awesome.
[1483.0] That is on my bucket list to get one of those IVs sometime.
[1486.3] So, they're so great.
[1488.5] And you can add like vitamin B, booster shots,
[1491.5] and vitamin D booster shots.
[1492.7] I feel like those make such a big difference.
[1495.3] What is your most rebellious money move?
[1498.1] Something a financial expert might cringe at,
[1501.0] but you would do it again in a heartbeat.
[1503.7] Well, because we're being honest here,
[1506.5] I once, well, okay, two years in a row, I invested six figures with two different coaches.
[1513.1] And I think if I had run them by my financial advisor, they would have been like, what
[1516.9] is this investment?
[1517.9] How will you see a return on it?
[1519.8] But the first time I did it, I doubled my revenue.
[1522.4] And then the second time I did it, it actually wasn't a direct money return, but it was
[1525.8] a return in terms of my network that led to some really amazing opportunities.
[1530.2] And so I, you know, I don't think anyone would look at it at the time, be like, this
[1533.1] makes financial sense.
[1534.6] But boy, did I see a return?
[1536.2] What's a recurring expense you secretly love even if others might call it ridiculous?
[1542.2] So I do a monthly rent the runway subscription and it's $155 a month and you get four items
[1547.6] at a time, you get to return a certain amount every month.
[1551.0] And I think some people would be like, that's frivolous.
[1553.4] And I love it so much.
[1555.1] And I don't really have to think about buying things which I think is a nice impact
[1557.7] for the planet too.
[1558.7] If you were gifted $1,000 and you had to spend it today, no saving, no investing, what
[1563.8] would you do with it?
[1564.8] Oh, I didn't give it to somebody that really needs it.
[1573.1] I really feel like there is a correlation between the people pleasing or the codependency and ambition, right?
[1582.5] Or it doesn't have to be ambition with your job.
[1585.1] It's whatever you want to overdo.
[1587.9] So it's like just the overdoing.
[1590.1] I see this pattern over and over again with my clients.
[1593.1] They think the ambition has to be this painful thing where we just ring the productivity out of our bodies,
[1599.5] which led me to create this framework on ambition that's in the book.
[1602.5] So in the book, I talk about there's two types of ambition.
[1605.7] There's painful ambition that's driven by a core wound,
[1608.1] which was my story and a lot of my clients.
[1610.5] And then there's purposeful ambition that comes from a place of truth,
[1612.8] a place of wholeness.
[1614.1] So in the painful ambition, which is kind of the dominant paradigm,
[1617.8] our desire for growth and achievement is coming from a core wound.
[1621.0] So there's five core wounds.
[1622.4] And they are rejection, abandonment, humiliation, betrayal, and injustice.
[1626.5] And each and every one of us has one, two, three,
[1628.6] or all five of those core wounds.
[1630.1] It's just a very human right of passage.
[1631.9] You can have the best parents on the planet,
[1634.0] and you'll still have a core wound.
[1635.7] You get them on the playground or vicariously.
[1637.8] We just have them.
[1639.1] And then as a result of the wound,
[1640.6] we wear a corresponding mask.
[1642.0] So for example, if we have a rejection wound,
[1644.7] the mask we wear is avoidance.
[1646.1] We'll avoid throwing our hat in the ring for the thing
[1647.9] because we don't want to be rejected.
[1649.3] Or if we have a betrayal wound,
[1650.8] the mask we wear is control.
[1652.5] If we're worried that people aren't going to show up
[1654.0] in the way that we want to, we'll just control everything
[1656.0] to make sure that we get the outcome that we want.
[1658.4] But you can imagine if our ambition is coming
[1660.5] from that place, it's going to be really wobbly.
[1662.7] So for a lot of the hard charging,
[1664.9] high achieving people that I work with initially,
[1666.8] it is coming from that wounded place.
[1668.4] And that was my story too.
[1669.6] And we have similar conversations about money,
[1672.7] whether you're issues with money,
[1675.4] how you feel about it.
[1676.6] It all comes from usually when you're younger
[1679.2] and this whole you're trying to fill.
[1682.5] So do you think ambition and money go hand in hand?
[1688.1] Do you feel like many of these people that you work with?
[1690.9] They're also trying to make money to fill these wounds
[1695.7] or is it just ambition for ambition?
[1698.3] See.
[1699.5] I think it's a both and.
[1700.7] And a lot of the times, the wounds around ambition
[1703.5] match the wounds around money, right?
[1705.0] So we just talked about the rejection wounds
[1707.1] and with the rejection wound, we wear the avoidance mask.
[1710.1] And so I'll notice that those people are also,
[1712.0] they're avoiding around their money.
[1713.3] They're avoiding around putting themselves out there
[1715.5] for the promotion or for the raise
[1717.0] because they're worried about the rejection.
[1718.6] And so there's almost a direct correlation
[1721.6] with our money as well.
[1723.1] And then we're trying to use anything outside of ourselves
[1726.3] to fill ourselves up, right?
[1727.7] The title bump, the pay increase, the award
[1730.9] so that we feel whole and worthy
[1732.1] versus doing the work on the inside.
[1733.7] So conversely, let's talk about the ambition penalty.
[1739.3] So what happens when women get exactly
[1741.8] what they worked for.
[1743.1] But instead of celebration,
[1744.7] they're met with resistance,
[1746.6] judgment and distance.
[1748.8] Yeah, I mean, that's the ambition penalty, right?
[1750.9] It's like we're told to be ambitious.
[1752.6] And then when we are,
[1753.9] we're saying like, hey, that's not polite.
[1755.7] We don't like the way that looks on you
[1757.3] in your identity and let's give you some demerits for it, right?
[1760.7] And so then a lot of people have a reconciliation
[1762.7] or a moment either they're gonna keep going
[1765.1] and sort of hard charging and they're gonna make a place
[1767.3] for themselves and maybe, you know,
[1768.8] they burn out or take a hit for it.
[1770.4] or they'll end up leaving the workforce.
[1772.9] At the beginning of the pandemic,
[1774.1] we saw women and women of color
[1775.5] leaving the workforce in droves
[1776.9] because they weren't supported
[1778.4] and their ambitions weren't supported.
[1779.9] And so then they turned to entrepreneurship
[1781.5] because they have a bit more agency there.
[1783.6] And so I think sometimes when there's no space
[1785.9] for our ambition either like we,
[1788.3] that internal fire burns us out
[1790.3] because there's no place to put it
[1791.3] or will we redirect it somewhere else?
[1793.7] And I think that can be really healthy, right?
[1795.3] Because our work doesn't have to be our be all end all,
[1798.7] even though we spend so much time there.
[1800.3] So where can we use our ambition in other places in our lives?
[1803.1] I've had so many conversations with women say,
[1806.1] well, I'm ambitious about motherhood,
[1807.9] or I'm ambitious about my art practice,
[1810.3] or I'm ambitious about rest.
[1812.0] And I'm like, cool, great.
[1813.6] If your workplace doesn't celebrate your ambitions
[1815.6] in these ways, let's try to redirect that to other places.
[1818.3] So you have a place for them to flow.
[1819.8] So financial independence doesn't always equal emotional freedom.
[1825.4] So how do we reconcile our bank account success
[1828.2] when our inner voice says, this is still not enough.
[1832.7] Yeah.
[1833.7] Yeah.
[1834.7] If the numbers are showing us that it's enough,
[1836.7] and we've run the equation, and we're like, OK,
[1838.5] like, I can actually happily pretend that I've
[1840.5] got my 25 times my annual earnings.
[1842.6] I'm good here, right?
[1843.7] But inside, we still feel like, you know,
[1846.0] no, it's not enough.
[1846.9] And I'm still coming from that place of scarcity.
[1848.9] There's a story there.
[1849.9] There's a wound there.
[1850.8] There's even potentially trauma there.
[1852.3] So we have to look for it.
[1853.7] Because if we don't do the work on the inside,
[1855.5] we are always going to seek things outside of ourselves
[1857.7] to try to fill that hole.
[1859.2] So the core wounds work is a really great place to start.
[1861.7] What are some of those earliest stories
[1863.4] that you've experienced around money?
[1865.3] I have a lot of clients that experience
[1866.6] a lot of financial trauma, whether they grew up in poverty
[1869.3] or housing insecurity.
[1870.6] And so they're like, I will work so hard
[1872.7] that I never have to experience that ever again.
[1875.6] For, maybe their parents had a lot of money,
[1877.3] then they lost that money.
[1878.3] And they're kind of always waiting for the other shooter draw.
[1880.8] So we have to do the work on those original stories
[1883.1] as original wounds, otherwise we'll be in that perpetual cycle.
[1885.9] It'll never leave us.
[1886.9] nothing will ever be enough.
[1888.9] And is it just because we want to please everyone in every aspect of our lives?
[1897.5] What is that?
[1899.5] I actually have a whole section in the book about codependency.
[1903.5] And you know, it's so funny because so many people don't connect with that phrase because
[1907.4] you know, the working definition that we had of it was from Melody Beauty back in the 80s
[1911.1] and it had a lot to do with addiction, but there's a beautiful new book by Terry Cole called
[1915.2] too much. It just came out at the end of 2024 and it's about high-functioning codependency
[1919.9] and it's much more what we're talking about here. The overgiving, let me do the last thing.
[1924.5] You stay at my house, let me take care of you, let me make the meals, you know, kind of
[1929.1] what we are culturally told to do and how many of us live into it. And so I think a lot
[1934.0] of us are really afraid of the fallout if we don't do that same, right? We're told to be
[1938.4] good girls to be hard workers to take care of everybody. And if we're not that, are we
[1943.1] going to get kicked out of the family system, are we going to have to fend for our
[1946.8] cells, right? Humans were pack animals. And we're so worried to be on our own and to be
[1951.3] ousted from the system that will often live into these roles to stay there, even if they're
[1956.2] really dysfunctional for us. I know I have.
[1958.8] Yeah. Are they not going to be our friend anymore? If we don't say yes to the
[1962.8] event, or if I don't show up to everything, is that is that going to be it for me? And
[1967.1] You know, it also is like a, I don't know if insecurities the best word, but it's like not feeling
[1975.1] secure in whatever, maybe whatever situation you're in, so you have to overdo it to overcompensate,
[1982.0] to justify why you belong there, why they should, they should be your friend, or why you are the great employee, or whatever it is.
[1989.8] Yeah. And I have, it's so interesting that you say this because so many of these high-achieving people that I work with are so afraid of their
[1996.3] grows and they're so afraid of their authenticity because they are worried that if they go to the
[2000.8] next level and if they are more of themselves people won't come with them and they'll be all alone up
[2004.7] there. And so notice it happens right? Sometimes people fall away but it is nothing compared to the
[2009.5] people that you gain. Do you see any correlation with super ambitious women and relationships?
[2017.9] Friendships, romantic relationships, is there a correlation or anything that your research
[2024.3] So actually a lot of those core wounds that we experienced in painful ambition, they will show up in our relationships. Right. So speaking of her experience, I'm a recovering avoidant. Right. So I had that rejection wound. I also have the betrayal wound. So control are those things that show up in my relationships.
[2041.3] And they would be mirrored back to me so much. I have one really close friendship and we talked about this at my book launch, but I'm avoidant and she is the abandonment wound. So she's dependent. Right. So in a relationship, what that looks like is the classic anxious.
[2053.3] anxious and avoid it dynamic. And so those same wounds that are showing up with our ambition
[2058.4] are going to show up in our relationships too. We just want to be compassionate with ourselves
[2062.1] because most of us have. Everyone has something, right? I mean, at the end of the day, everyone has
[2066.5] something. No one is like totally, you know, on the street in narrow, I guess, as far as the way they
[2071.6] feel about things or the way they function. So you kind of have to really look at what is your thing
[2077.9] and be aware of it.
[2079.6] And I think awareness is the biggest,
[2081.9] is to be aware of it,
[2083.6] and then know the steps,
[2086.2] and then put those guardrails on to go,
[2088.3] all right, you're starting to be a little bit off,
[2090.6] and you're overdoing the people
[2092.9] pleasing and all of that,
[2093.9] and you're, you know,
[2094.9] and just having that awareness.
[2096.8] But I think, I feel like that's really not something
[2099.8] that's taught to us.
[2102.2] Of course, of course.
[2103.3] So like you said, I think awareness is 80% of it.
[2106.5] And then thinking about the context that kind of bring those things out of us, right?
[2110.6] Like I noticed that the betrayal wounds comes up and the control sneaks in when I'm moving
[2115.1] really fast and I don't feel like I have the right support in place then I'm going to kind of go
[2118.5] to that place. And so okay, I noticed that I put myself in that position again where I didn't call
[2123.4] in the right support. So now my control mask is coming up. What do I need to do to shift that out of
[2128.4] the way? Who do I need to call for health? And so just thinking about our patterns, the context,
[2132.9] and then the actions that will take moment to moment to help us choose something different.
[2136.1] If a list starts feeling emotionally burnout, professionally successful, but personally depleted.
[2142.3] What's one question she can ask herself today to start coming home to her real ambition?
[2148.4] I love that question. I mean, obviously the work around core wounds, but I think one of the
[2152.6] simplest questions that we can ask ourselves is like, what am I tolerating in my life that I need
[2157.3] not be tolerating? What's the thing that I really need to raise the standard on today that
[2162.4] that will radically change my experience.
[2164.7] So maybe we're tolerating being underpaid.
[2166.8] Maybe we're tolerating overworking
[2168.8] because we don't have the right support.
[2170.0] What are the things that you're tolerating
[2171.6] that you need to raise the standard on?
[2173.2] I don't know about you,
[2174.5] but that conversation just felt like a big hug.
[2177.5] I'm gonna drop some real truths today
[2179.8] about ambition, burnout, boundaries,
[2182.8] and why the world benefits when women burnout.
[2186.2] Yes, she said it, and yes, she's right.
[2189.8] But more importantly, she reminded us
[2192.2] that we have the power to step out of the loop
[2195.6] and create something more aligned,
[2198.1] more sustainable and more whole.
[2201.0] If today's episode sparked something in you,
[2203.7] do yourself a favor and pick up a copy
[2206.1] of the ambition trap.
[2207.8] You can find all the links in the show notes.
[2210.5] And while you're at it,
[2211.8] please follow the show on your favorite podcast app
[2214.6] so you never miss an episode.
[2216.1] Leave us a quick rating and review.
[2218.3] It helps more listeners like you find the show.
[2221.6] Keep the conversation going with me over on Instagram
[2224.8] at everyone's talking money.
[2227.0] And remember, money should always be a tool
[2230.6] to help you live life on your terms,
[2233.3] not a measuring stick for your worth.
[2236.2] Until next time, protect your energy
[2238.9] and reclaim your ambition.
[2254.1] Are you looking for a trusted health insurance?
[2256.5] Allianne covers UB on borders.
[2258.9] We deliver peace of mind just a click away
[2261.5] with global telehealth access
[2263.4] and round-the-clock support.
[2265.1] Backed by 2 million healthcare providers worldwide,
[2267.8] we're trusted as the number one insurance brand
[2270.0] for the last seven years.
[2271.6] Visit alianscare.com and explore our Singapore plans
[2275.1] to find out more.
[2276.3] Terms and conditions apply.